[rpmsongs]

It depends a lot on the flasher you use.
The electromechanical flasher I used doesn't like that set up.
The FL2 red (or FL3 red) from Superbright can handle the setup.
With some resistors and diodes, it is possible to do what you wish.
Without relays, the signal side gets brighter.
To cut out the running light entirely on just the signal side would be more difficult.
My current setup cuts both sides on the running light when a signal is activated.

I was thinking about that same setup until I saw this vid.

How to use running light as a turn signal - YouTube

I got what I think is this relay, and it's not quite working on my table. So, back to the old parts store we go. Thoughts?

 

[rpmsongs]

This is also helping me make sense of this. How a 5 Pin Relay Works - YouTube

I think It may work if 86 came from the blue or orange wire (respectively), 85 went to ground, and 30 came from the brown wire, and 87a went to the headlight. 87 doesn't go to anything unless you wanna get fancy and run that to your indicator for the alternating effect you get from your 3 wire flasher. Do this for both sides, left and right, and tuck all this under the seat or gas tank. hmmm...

The real question I'm having now is how many amps does the relay need to be rated for it to not cause a short when the turn signal wire goes to ground as the relay switches over? Or is that a matter of adding a resistor since the turn signals ground through each other and light the indicator light anyway. Or is that not a problem at all?

Perhaps instead of having 85 go straight to the ground you would have it go to the indicator. If this is done wouldn't the opposite signals modulate in sync. I need to sleep on this. Let me know what you think.

Thank you for your patience. I apologize for this not being very eloquent. It's late, and I've been thinking too hard today about these things that are just outside my grasp.

 

[Buickguy]

I couldn't get the first video to run but the relay video is correct.
The thing with the automotive relay is that they are large and very hard to find space for. I used micro relays from Radio Shack. They have 10 amp rated contacts so the switching function is robust enough. The coil only draws .45 of a Watt so the power use is very low. Best of all, they are tiny and fit beneath the seat very well. The hardest part of using micro relays is the soldering. It takes a steady hand and a low Wattage soldering pencil. (25 to 35 Watts)
You won't want to ground the relay coil through a signal however.

Keep in mind a five pin relay can split output from a single source as shown in the video or it can split input from two sources to a single output (I used mine that way)



Just so I'm clear on what you want to do, you are trying to get the front signals to act as running lights and turn signals?
The other question I have is if you are going LED on the turn signals.

What I did is running light/turn signal fronts, on in the rear the signals went to tail/brake/signal, using the relays to switch over signal to brake light function with brake light as the default.
Dimming an LED bulb is a matter of adding resistance.

I could draw up a crude schematic for what you wish to do once I fully understand what you want.

 

[cagie]

Marty, you should draw one up. Might include the diode set-up for the dash indicators. also note the caveat for rear having to be red lens if converting to run/tail/brake. Post it in a separate thread and sticky it. Good stuff to know.

 

[rpmsongs]

Awesome. Thanks for the help! Yes. I already ordered tiny rear turn signals that are amber, so I suppose the brake light function is out of the question. So I'm actually wanting to get all to be running lights and turn signals. Is that legal I wonder. I believe the modulation issue goes away if I use the fl3 red for the indicator. Would the capacitance of relay you use have an effect on the function of the flasher signal going to ground causing the blinking? When the flasher signal goes to ground what prevents that from being a short? Coffee kicking in. Im confusing myself

 

[Buickguy]

Cagie, I will.
It will take a little time, as this computer isn't 100% yet, but there are the old crude schematics I had still here. I can draw new but not modify my old ones.


By the way, I know what my glitch is now. It was my mistake in the migration from the old OS to the newer OS.
As the old hard drive was failing, I had to migrate over my data with some heavy duty disk utilities. In the process, I was trying to copy my applications, libraries, and desktop. Instead of copying them to the ones on the newer system, I ended up replacing the ones for the newer system with the ones from the older system.

So, the machine is now running a partial system, reading the data but not allowing me to change any of it. Its my own fault and I know better but it was just a touch of the wrong command. It did exactly what I told it to do, just it wasn't what I mean for it to do.
There is only one fix. An install disk for the newer system. It would replace the apps, library, and desktop, folders with the correct ones but still should retain my data.

 

[Buickguy]

Awesome. Thanks for the help! Yes. I already ordered tiny rear turn signals that are amber, so I suppose the brake light function is out of the question. So I'm actually wanting to get all to be running lights and turn signals. Is that legal I wonder. I believe the modulation issue goes away if I use the fl3 red for the indicator. Would the capacitance of relay you use have an effect on the function of the flasher signal going to ground causing the blinking? When the flasher signal goes to ground what prevents that from being a short? Coffee kicking in. Im confusing myself

Ok, you can't do tail lights with amber signals. Tail lights must be red.

Sometimes the nomenclature gets a bit confused.

When I speak of running lights, I mean it in the sense of dimmer front signals staying on. On a car, they would call the a front marker. They usually do that with a dual contact bulb like the 1157. It can be done with a single contact but lets not go there yet.
The only lights on the rear that can do that are what I refer to as tail lights. They must be red by federal (and most state) laws.

The flasher used on the Rebel is of the type American cars used in the 60s and 70s. There is no ground. The flasher just interrupts the flow of positive. Two prong flashers are all of this type. It was the same with three wire flasher of that era and those can be adapted to the Rebel easily.

The trouble comes in with the 21st century electronics now used on many automotive applications. They can be adapted but require a rethink of the Rebel turn signal system. Those more modern flashers do require a ground and it must be added to the Rebel wiring. Even the five pin grounding flashers can be adapted but I prefer to work within the Rebel system.

Keeping the system simple means less things to go wrong. On a cycle, I prefer simple and robust systems so my designs tend to use technology from the mid 20th century. Its is still readily available and still used on many vehicles.

In the mean time, I'll try to show the Rebels OE system a bit better.

 

[Buickguy]

Here is the OE signal setup.
The ground is the green shown as a frame ground on the diagram.
The Rebel uses a wired ground. Still, the only grounding is the signal bulbs themselves.

 

[Buickguy]

Going LED signals, using the FL3 red flasher from superbright and a single dash light.

 

[Buickguy]

LED signals with the FL2 flasher and two diodes to correct cross flash.

 

[Buickguy]

Once you decide on which way you will wire for LED, you can add dimmer front marker (running) lights with four diodes and two 100Ω resistors.

 

[rpmsongs]

Here is the OE signal setup.
The ground is the green shown as a frame ground on the diagram.
The Rebel uses a wired ground. Still, the only grounding is the signal bulbs themselves.

What are you using to create your schematics. I've been looking at apps to do it. Nothing's free.

So, what I meant was that as the flasher signal coming in 86 switches to output 87 instead of 87a the signal from 86 goes to 85. If 85 doesn't go anywhere the relay doesn't switch. So as the flasher signal doesn't cause the flashing, it causes the opposite. It causes the normally running light to turn off as signal flows from the flasher. This also keeps the indicator from alternating with the signals. Basically, they're always running lights that sometimes turn off.

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. It's like the rear lights on my old 65 nova. So, since 85 has to allow flow from 86 to go somewhere, does that circuit short when 86 flows to 85 and 85 is connected to ground? Or is the resistance of the wire and 5 pin relay enough to prevent a short and blown fuse? I'm probably just confused.

You mentioned your relay having enough capacitance to keep the turn signal flowing until it was turned off, then it switches back to running light signal. I'm wondering if this capacitance would keep the relay from working the way I'm thinking. Though it may not matter if I also jump 87 and 87a.

Crap. I need to see if that order hasn't shipped then... I'd hate to be breaking any laws. Of course if I do get red I want brake light function as well as running. Totally becoming a big circuit in my mind now. Thanks, sorry for the pestering.

 

[Buickguy]

Here is the schematic with front running lights, using the diode method of correcting cross flash on the dash indicator.

 

[Buickguy]

What are you using to create your schematics. I've been looking at apps to do it. Nothing's free.

I'm running an old Mac PowerBook G4 on OSX 10.5.8 (now) and the program I am using is Graphic Converter. It was bundled with my old Titanium PowerBook G4 when it was running OSX 10.2.
Its main purpose is to convert graphics from one format to another but it has some rudimentary draw and paint functions as well. I just draw up my own schematics with it. They aren't the best but they get the job done.

So, what I meant was that as the flasher signal coming in 86 switches to output 87 instead of 87a the signal from 86 goes to 85. If 85 doesn't go anywhere the relay doesn't switch. So as the flasher signal doesn't cause the flashing, it causes the opposite. It causes the normally running light to turn off as signal flows from the flasher. This also keeps the indicator from alternating with the signals. Basically, they're always running lights that sometimes turn off.

Ok, the numbers are confusing me a bit. I always referred to function.
What I have is positive coming in from the turn switch going in to pin 87 (normally open) and pin 86 (coil positive). Brake light positive is going in to pin 87a (normally closed). I have a frame ground going to pin 85 (coil negative).
The output to my rear signal is connected to pin 30.
I used two relays, one for right, one for left. The micro relays I used will stay energized with very low power.
I used an electro mechanical flasher. It isn't the pure electronic like the FL2 red. It uses a timer circuit to move a physical relay. That means, that there is a slight capacitance left in the flasher, just enough to hold my micro relay open during turn signal function.

This will not work for your relay however.!!
The Bosch big relay like that takes much more power to hold open.

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. It's like the rear lights on my old 65 nova. So, since 85 has to allow flow from 86 to go somewhere, does that circuit short when 86 flows to 85 and 85 is connected to ground? Or is the resistance of the wire and 5 pin relay enough to prevent a short and blown fuse? I'm probably just confused.

85 and 86 are coil power. It just takes what it needs to trip the electromagnet. It won't short even if you run battery + to 86 (coil +) and battery - to 85 (coil -) it will just click 30 (common) from 87a (normally closed) to 87 (normally open)

Say you had a high draw horn. The horn button would put trip the coil (85 grounded, horn button + to 86) The horn button would click the relay every time you push the horn button.
Power from the battery (+) would go directly to pin 30 (common)
Power (+) out to the horn itself would come off 87 (normally open)
When the button was pushed, the relay would click over and sound the horn.
87a would not be used in that case.

You mentioned your relay having enough capacitance to keep the turn signal flowing until it was turned off, then it switches back to running light signal. I'm wondering if this capacitance would keep the relay from working the way I'm thinking. Though it may not matter if I also jump 87 and 87a.

Crap. I need to see if that order hasn't shipped then... I'd hate to be breaking any laws. Of course if I do get red I want brake light function as well as running. Totally becoming a big circuit in my mind now. Thanks, sorry for the pestering.

If you jump 87 and 87a, you defeat the purpose of a relay.
The relay is a remote DPST switch between 87 and 87a from 30.


Now, all that said. Using inherent capacitance from the electro mechanical flasher to latch the micro relays meant that I needed a third relay to ground out the running light function to use the signals. Otherwise that capacitance doesn't allow full switching on the signals. The just modulate instead of truly flash and the flasher itself never reaches speed
Brake light to signal works well however.

Hopefully that is all making sense.

 

[rpmsongs]

Absolutely! Might start drawing up the entire circuit to help me put my head around it. Tesla Droid looks cool. So does iCircuit. The tail lights won't be here until Monday so i have a bit of time to even bread board it.

I returned the auto relays and got the same ones you have. One of them was in an older box and was on sale for $1. I have one of those 3rd hand devices which should make soldering those little pins a lot easier. My soldering iron also has a dial so i can get it really low. I'll do my best to document this all in a new thread.

I suppose I would need 2 more relays to run the brake light functions unless i tap the brake light wire for the front lights too. Maybe there's a better way to do this so that the front lights stay as bright as they can all the time...

Thanks again for the help my friend!

This project is making under-employment a bit more enjoyable and so far I've got less than $50 in the whole thing. I might even spring for all new black wire.


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[Buickguy]

The FL2 or FL3 flasher will run the bill up some.
I had a thought on how to wire for brake/turn.
It was laid out in my head a second ago but I lost it.

 

[rpmsongs]

Ha! Yeah, seems hard without more relays!

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[Buickguy]

Of course, the easy way out is to use one of those adapters for trailers. All the circuitry is laid out and encased. Just get one that does LED.

Here are the typical ones. Trailer Hitch Electrical Wiring Adapters by Draw-Tite
A bit pricey.

I found the schematic for how they do it.

 

[cagie]

Kuryakyn also makes a run/tail/brake module that runs about $70 if you shop around. Put one on the V-Star. Even comes with load balance should you need it and flashes the brake lights when you hit the brakes. Easy to install and uses stock flasher unit. Only thing I had to add was the red lenses which were easy to come by.

I guess the only real drawback to trying to convert the Rebel to run/tail/brake setup is, as far as I know, there are no real red lens replacements for the stock turn signals. You'd have to go with an aftermarket turn signal to be compliant.

 

[Buickguy]

My solution was clear lenses with red LED bulbs.