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lemme jump in and give some advantages of an electric, for a while I owned a Zero SF, I used it as a commuter back and forth to town, twice a day , 16 miles round trip so 32 miles a day for 8 months. initial cost, $17,000.00 so, excessively expensive yeah, but a guy's gotta have his toys, after the initial cost, additional cost, $0.00 no oil no filters, no gas, electricity to charge was 115 volts 15 amps solar. Maintenance, zero hours zero minutes. (din't wash it) it was belt drive, motor was air cooled (some are oil cooled and require oil changes etc ) extended range was dependent on speed you traveled, I got one trip of 110 miles with 30% battery to spare and the same trip 110 miles with 2% remaining .
What I'm sayin is, for the right set of circumstances, they can be great, for others not so great, just like any other bike, I.c.e. or electric or steam powered or whatever.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
lemme jump in and give some advantages of an electric, for a while I owned a Zero SF, I used it as a commuter back and forth to town, twice a day , 16 miles round trip so 32 miles a day for 8 months. initial cost, $17,000.00 so, excessively expensive yeah, but a guy's gotta have his toys, after the initial cost, additional cost, $0.00 no oil no filters, no gas, electricity to charge was 115 volts 15 amps solar. Maintenance, zero hours zero minutes. (din't wash it) it was belt drive, motor was air cooled (some are oil cooled and require oil changes etc ) extended range was dependent on speed you traveled, I got one trip of 110 miles with 30% battery to spare and the same trip 110 miles with 2% remaining .
What I'm sayin is, for the right set of circumstances, they can be great, for others not so great, just like any other bike, I.c.e. or electric or steam powered or whatever.
I know what you mean. It may make sense for a person under some circumstances but I am not one of those. I have ridden in e-Rikshaws, e-TukTuks. It was nothing special. I missed my clutch in the Tesla when drove it once. $17000 is 5000 gallons of gas. Not sure how much you recovered when you sold the bike. We all splurge for what makes us happy. I splurge on First or Business Class instead of flying coach. If there is a plane crash, first class seat isn't any safer. I have spent $7000 on a plane ticket when my boss (the owner of the company) spent $700 to fly to the same destination. So who am I to judge?
 

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Li Ion batteries have a limited life span.. Doubt I'd get much more than the 7+ years I've got out of Rebel's Yuasa battery..
Replacement 14.4kwh battery module for the Zero S / SR / DS / DSR models runs over $7,000 US..
The 7.2kwh module for the Zero S / SR / DS / DSR / FX / FXS models costs nearly $4,000 US providing only 90 miles of city driving which drops to 40 highway miles according to reviews..
It's best to keep Li Ion charged between 60%-90% of capacity and stored at around 80% capacity to extend battery life..

For those of us who experience real winters charging Li Ion//LiFePO4 at or below 32°F (0°C) even once will irreparably damage the battery module cells.. In a well designed charging system the Battery Management System (BMS) will stop all charging at 34°F (1°C) preventing damage..
Not all BMS boards are programed to stop charging at low temp though..

That is the reason I haven't installed DIY LiFePO4 Headway battery system in class A motorcoach or my truck even though the 14 year old group 29 deep cycle lead acid batteries are on their last legs.. can't even find group 29 batteries anymore so I'm going to have to come up with something soon..
 

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I had the 14.4 with a 5 year warranty, NOT PRORATED, so I figured about 3 to 4 years into it, the battery would fail and I would get another free, with another 5 year warranty also not prorated, as poorly as the bike was made, by then it would be junk, this is off topic i think, maybe, but the prorated battery is something to take into consideration
 

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Appears Zero's power pack Limited Warranty has loopholes by which they can deny warranted replacement.. Places responsibility of proper upkeep on owner operator..

Many Rebel owners have bikes 10 to 30+ years old.
Doubt many if any of these high tech machines will last anywhere near as long..

heck I don't expect the newest CMX Rebels to last nearly as long as the 1st & 2nd generation carbureted versions..
 

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Too political for me to answer.
I do know that, every time I find something quality that lasts, the store stops carrying it because they don't sell enough. All that's left on the shelves is the junk that doesn't last any length of time.
1st to market with a product gets the lions share regardless of quality. Case in point: At work we installed a new set of lasers for the fiber system. We had a 25% failure rate right out of the box. The only time that I had a problem with the older equivalent was when a test point failed. It still worked well, after 15 years of service, only the ability to test it without removing the main output wasn't available anymore.
 
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How are the corporations going to continue to grow if their products last indefinitely?
LoL there are Billions of potential of buyers if product is reliable..
especially for a motorcycle which is commonalty used throughout the world..
Planned Obsolesce is capitalist mantra..
 
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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
I would hate to have to pay $4000 to "refill" my e-bike if the battery does go kaput.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 · (Edited)
Very high capacitance super/ultra capacitors have their capacitance from two sources, the conventional capacitance that comes from two double layers separated by the electrolyte containing an semi-permeable membrane formed under electrostatic forces much like a conventional electrolytic capacitor. This capacitance value is high because the distance between two oppositely charged layers of each of the two layers is very small---thickness of a molecule--- of the order of a nm (nanometer). There is another contribution to capacitance that comes from a different mechanism and is hence called "pseudocapacitance' which involves REDOX ( reduction and oxidation reactions--oxidation is loss of an electron and reduction is gain of an electron). I don't understand this phenomenon completely (I am not sure of it's a quantum phenomenon like super conductivity and super fluidity)

The important point is energy stored per unit mass (total charge stored per kg) is still about a 30th of that stored in lithium ion batteries. It/s not an improvement on Li ion batteries and people have been working on it since at least he late 1990s. These ultra capacitors alone are not an improvement on batteries. They do have a a higher power density than batteries. So they can be used in connection with batteries to deliver a burst or energy, say in acceleration so that you don't drain your battery quickly when you step on the pedal hard or twist your throttle to WOT..
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
If the price is right, I will consider buying a the three wheeled EV with a reader of 100 miles or so on a single charge for running errands like grocery shopping, making a run to buy oil for the rebel, or the lawnmower etc. or making it to doctor's appointments. I can accomplish all these tasks without getting on the freeway. To speed of 50 mph would be just fine. I don't need fancy gets like infotainment, GPS or back up camera.
I am having a 240V 50 amp outlet, for use with a level 2 charger, installed to private the garage for a future EV. I also had to hide wired for with a generator power inlet and 100 AMP wire even though I plan to use a generator of about 7200 running watts. The contractor didn't the advance I have him 9n vacation and is now dragging his feet. If he had finished the work on schedule, it would have been dinner in Jan 2021. We have had no power since 10:00 a.m. this morning due to snow this morning.

Wheel Tire Automotive tail & brake light Car Vehicle
 

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Life's funny that way. I have 2 gasoline generators. 1 for short term & another for longer outages. I got a much larger one (propane/nat gas) but never set it up. Ever since I got so prepared, I've only had a half hour outage at the longest. That's been 3 years. The electric company came over and changed my power feed to a different phase. My neighbor's go out all the time but I don't.
 
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Same. Now that I am prepared it doesn't matter. I can go a long time without electricity. Longer than the power company is willing to leave me without it. I've got wood for heat and oil lamps for light. I'll use my generator for an hour a day if the outage lasts more than a day to run my chest freezer and charge my deep cycle batteries for internet. I heat water and cook food on and in the woodstove.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
In 45 years the first time we suffered power loss was in July 2010 for about 5 hours. The second time was probably for an hour so, while we were away at the local Harbor Freight. The longest was in Feb of 2018 or 19 when we had no power for 5 days. Today, we were without power for about 8 hour.

With this limited data, I feel outage is becoming more frequent. It's becoming worse, Maybe power companies don't allocate as much finds for maintenance as local power grids get older. We never lost power for more than a few minutes where were in Delhi although power outages were quite common, more so than here. We were just lucky.

I would prefer a natural gas generator but my gas lines are on the opposite side of the house from the a.c. mains panel. The garage is on the mains panel side. I plan to store my generator in the garage when it's not being used. It's easier to have the power inlet just outside the garage so that I can just wheel the generator out when I need to use it.
 

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lemme jump in and give some advantages of an electric, for a while I owned a Zero SF, I used it as a commuter back and forth to town, twice a day , 16 miles round trip so 32 miles a day for 8 months. initial cost, $17,000.00 so, excessively expensive yeah, but a guy's gotta have his toys, after the initial cost, additional cost, $0.00 no oil no filters, no gas, electricity to charge was 115 volts 15 amps solar. Maintenance, zero hours zero minutes. (din't wash it) it was belt drive, motor was air cooled (some are oil cooled and require oil changes etc ) extended range was dependent on speed you traveled, I got one trip of 110 miles with 30% battery to spare and the same trip 110 miles with 2% remaining .
What I'm sayin is, for the right set of circumstances, they can be great, for others not so great, just like any other bike, I.c.e. or electric or steam powered or whatever.
You say, "for awhile I owned a Zero SF". What's the rest of the story ? I'm one of those stubborn ole guys who believes in learning from other people's mistakes. Assuming you sold it, how much of that $17K did you recover ?
 

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I've been through multiple week-long outages in the 25 years that I've been in my house. Here it's weather related. A bad ice or wind storm will affect 1000's of customers and delay repairs due to limited crews. I've been vigilant in telling the power company about overhanging trees on my road - they always come out and take care of them.
 

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My area is powered by a co-op. They do excellent maintenance and when the entire grid went down for this area my power was only down for about an hour because they flipped to a different provider. They have multiple providers at the flip of a switch. A co-op is the way to go if it's available in your area. And every December I get a 50 to $150 rebate.
 

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In 45 years the first time we suffered power loss was in July 2010 for about 5 hours. The second time was probably for an hour so, while we were away at the local Harbor Freight. The longest was in Feb of 2018 or 19 when we had no power for 5 days. Today, we were without power for about 8 hour.

With this limited data, I feel outage is becoming more frequent. It's becoming worse, Maybe power companies don't allocate as much finds for maintenance as local power grids get older. We never lost power for more than a few minutes where were in Delhi although power outages were quite common, more so than here. We were just lucky.

I would prefer a natural gas generator but my gas lines are on the opposite side of the house from the a.c. mains panel. The garage is on the mains panel side. I plan to store my generator in the garage when it's not being used. It's easier to have the power inlet just outside the garage so that I can just wheel the generator out when I need to use it.
Let me figure a moment, Say you buy an elec scooter for $17K (figure quoted from above post", then to be sure of a ride, you need a generator ($?). Science says humans are the only life form that can reason and I'm trying to use what little reason I have. I pay about $5-6 a week to drive 100-120 miles. I have a '09 Rebel that I bought for $1,800 4 yrs. ago and can easily sell it for more. If I were selling a used elec bike after 4 yrs., I would not get back anything close to my investment, considering that the buyer already would know that he will probably have to shell out probably $4+K for a new battery. I probably wouldn't be able to sell it and can't even scrap it without paying for disposal of hazardous materials. Even using new "progressive" math, I see 2+2= -0 .
 

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My area is powered by a co-op. They do excellent maintenance and when the entire grid went down for this area my power was only down for about an hour because they flipped to a different provider. They have multiple providers at the flip of a switch. A co-op is the way to go if it's available in your area. And every December I get a 50 to $150 rebate.
Thanks Emil for reminding me of more reasons why I moved to the Islands. My elec. bill last month was $28usd, and that's with A/C all day, elec. stove top, and elec. hot water heater. (most everything else is on 12v). Damn, I should have left earlier !! Well 49 yrs. still ain't bad. LOL !!
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 · (Edited)
Let me figure a moment, Say you buy an elec scooter for $17K (figure quoted from above post", then to be sure of a ride, you need a generator ($?). Science says humans are the only life form that can reason and I'm trying to use what little reason I have. I pay about $5-6 a week to drive 100-120 miles. I have a '09 Rebel that I bought for $1,800 4 yrs. ago and can easily sell it for more. If I were selling a used elec bike after 4 yrs., I would not get back anything close to my investment, considering that the buyer already would know that he will probably have to shell out probably $4+K for a new battery. I probably wouldn't be able to sell it and can't even scrap it without paying for disposal of hazardous materials. Even using new "progressive" math, I see 2+2= -0 .
Slow down! Slow down!! Slow down!!!!
I admire your imagination. You would make a great fiction writer, a journalist, an actor or a dancer, a pilot, or even an aircraft mechanic.

I did not say $ 17K was the right price. Who said I would buy a generator to charge a vehicle that I don't even have? Is charging an EV the only purpose served by a generator? Do power stations exist only to charge batteries?

Please re read what I typed slowly without conflating your thoughts and my words.
Your arithmetic verbage here and use of "progressive mathematics", which is not even a mathematical concept, is based on misunderstanding of my words

I don't like to talk about abstract concepts in general public forums, for the simple reason that they do not belong in such places. Since you brought it up, I will say a few words at the risk of boring many people.

0 is the only number whose additive inverse is identical to itself.
0 is also the additive identity just like unity is the multiplicative identity.

-0 is the additive inverse of 0 just like -x is an additive inverse of x.
Suppose -0 is the additive inverse of 0
-0+0=0

Since zero is additive identity, just like unity is a multiplicative identity.
Hence -0+0 is also equal to -0
Hence 0= -0

Also
0+0= -0 hence 0= -0 is another way.

Yes this, abstract maths, is boring when used to learn simple arithmetic that belongs in first grade or kindergarten but it's (group theory, for example) very useful in advanced mathematics and physics. Abstract mathematics, though, the basis of functional mathematics, cannot be appreciated without learning functional and simple arithmetic first. Using it to teach simple arithmetic in lower grades is a bad idea n my opinion. And most science and maths teachers in our country don't really learn any science or math properly though they supposedly learn to "teach". "Teach what?" I ask.
 
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