Couple Questions; Crank, no spark condition - Honda Rebel Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 01-06-2020, 05:22 PM Thread Starter
 
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Couple Questions; Crank, no spark condition

Howdy,

Read over multiple threads about this exact topic and have come up with several questions.

I have an 86 Rebel 250.

Get on with it!!

So after looking at the wiring diagram, the clutch switch is connected to the starter relay. Correct me if I am wrong.

->>If I'm cranking, should I be able to eliminate the testing of the clutch switch?

Again I know I have no spark. I really do not want to jump to conclusions and say that the CDI is bad.
Therefore a question Several questions have arisen;
->The kill switch on my harleys will disconnect everything. You cannot crank with the kill switch engaged. Yet after looking over the wiring diagram for the Rebel, the kill switch is connected to, the CDI, Key(Ignition) switch and the headlight. Kill switch does not appear to be connected to the starter circuit.
->Is this correct?
->Can you crank with kill switch set to off or malfunctioning?
->> Does the Kill switch simply control whether or not the bike has spark or not?

So testing the kill switch, you would simply looking to see if there is continuity during the off position?

I should be able to crank and see if I am getting power from the pickup coil and also the stator/Altenator with the CDI disconnected from the bike?

If I am understanding correctly what the CDI does, it does not take power from the battery yet it takes power from the combo of the Pickup coil and the Altenator and creates the spark that way.

Therefore if I have power and that shall be tested in AC from the Stator while cranking, and a power signal from the pick up coil, there should be no problems within the left hand side cover. On to testing the coils from there.

->If coils test good, kill switch tests good, stator and pickup coil test good, the CDI would be to blame?

Am I on the right track here? Hopefully there aren't too many questions

If my CDI is to blame, you guys keep on saying these chinese knock offs are junk....Where do I get one then?
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post #2 of 30 Old 01-06-2020, 07:34 PM
 
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Welcome to Forum
If it cranks in neutral the neutral safety switch is working.. no testing required..


Kill switch has no effect on cranking,, it provides a ground that disables cdi..

Rebel utilizes an AC CDI as alternating current supplies charging voltage..
100+Vac generated by Alternator/exciter coils charges capacitors of cdi, pulse generator coil supplies >0.7Vac spark pulse.. you need a Peak Voltage adapter to test their output accurately
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001O4TZGG
spark advance is calculated within cdi depending on rpm of spark pulse.. cdi caps discharge through coils..
Unlikely both coils fail at same time.. testing likely to produce nominal results

Converted my 87 to 2nd generation cdi couple of years ago
https://www.hondarebelforum.com/f80/...ml#post1174297
both the Chinese and Argentinian aftermarket IHA6008 cdi will work on all 2nd gen Rebels as well as 1st gen wiring hack..
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Ignition1.jpg (85.7 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg Starter1.jpg (77.7 KB, 1 views)
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post #3 of 30 Old 01-06-2020, 08:19 PM
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post #4 of 30 Old 01-07-2020, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flitecontrol View Post
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post #5 of 30 Old 01-07-2020, 11:23 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoakedKarma View Post
Welcome to Forum
If it cranks in neutral the neutral safety switch is working.. no testing required..


Kill switch has no effect on cranking,, it provides a ground that disables cdi..

Rebel utilizes an AC CDI as alternating current supplies charging voltage..
100+Vac generated by Alternator/exciter coils charges capacitors of cdi, pulse generator coil supplies >0.7Vac spark pulse.. you need a Peak Voltage adapter to test their output accurately
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001O4TZGG
spark advance is calculated within cdi depending on rpm of spark pulse.. cdi caps discharge through coils..
Unlikely both coils fail at same time.. testing likely to produce nominal results

Converted my 87 to 2nd generation cdi couple of years ago
https://www.hondarebelforum.com/f80/...ml#post1174297
both the Chinese and Argentinian aftermarket IHA6008 cdi will work on all 2nd gen Rebels as well as 1st gen wiring hack..
SoakedKarma,

Thank you for your detailed response.

I've tested my coils and they both tested within specs. ++++

So forgive me, I have a tendency to overthink things.

So I tested the kill switch at the CDI which is the black/white, (and probably the wrong way to do it), running a continuity test, grounding to the bolt on top of the valve cover, switching from run to off either way I had continuity. I would think that if I have continuity, it simply means that its grounded out. This would fault the kill switch. Is this correct? That simple of a fix?

Like I said I get ahead of myself a lot.

The clymer manuals for Harleys have more detail on how to do electrical diagnosis than the clymer manual for this rebel. In some way infuriating.

So when you test the pick up coil and the power coming using the peak power tester,

-for the pick up coil connect the leads to the Dark green and Blue yellow at the CDI connector?
----Crank
----look for 0.7 VAC

-for the stator exciter; connect the power to Red black and where? Ground?
--Crank
---Look for 100+VAC

Also you said in a previous thread to check resistance also:

"Old school 1st generation Rebel diagnostic procedure was to measure exciter/alternator and pulse generator resistance while connectors disconnected..
Pulse generator 90-100Ω
Exciter/alternator 270-340Ω
Peak voltage testing is more accurate at finding faults" - (no spark on Honda Rebel after sitting a couple of monthes, Steve66)

This resistance test is done with or without cranking?

I know on harleys you want to check whether you have a grounded stator, simple procedure of connecting leads to one of the legs of the stator then the other lead to ground and check for continuity. Is this a valid test as well for these stators?

I ran a test cranking with between the legs of the stator last night using the VAC on my meter, I only got 4 VAC on each leg, running the test 1-2, 1-3 , 2-3. Is this right or should I be using the peak voltage tester? I know that this meter is accurate when running tests on Harley stators while the bike is running as I get the proper VAC during stators tests. Is there a spec for the raw output of the stator?

Thank you.
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post #6 of 30 Old 01-07-2020, 11:41 AM Thread Starter
 
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Is this the correct 2nd gen cdi??


https://www.amazon.com/Arrowhead-CDI.../dp/B009XIT7DQ
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post #7 of 30 Old 01-07-2020, 04:06 PM
 
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Yes,, that is the correct CDI as is this one which is cheaper and the one I bought
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0081TGQ6Y
no longer has the wiring pig tail mine came with though..

You should have Kill switch continuity with switch On.. checking between frame ground and Black connector wire of 2 wire cdi connector.. If you have continuity with switch Off as well the switch is the problem or the wire has chaffed and grounding somewhere..

any Ω ohm test would be Not cranking.. simple resistance test of windings.. resistance and peak voltage tests should be conducted by disconnecting alternator and pulse/trigger just above where wiring exits case connecting to wire harness.. pita it is easier to check at cdi but be aware resistance could show higher than spec and peak voltage may be lower due to connectors and wire harness involved..

-for the pick up coil connect the leads to the Dark green and Blue yellow at the CDI connector?
----Crank Yes but see sentence above


~ for the stator/exciter; connect the Peak Voltage Adapter Positive lead to Red/Black,, negative to frame ground
you can't read exciter AC output properly without peak voltage adapter connected to your multimeter as the AC pulses too fast for meter alone to pick it up...

Rebel stator is made up of 11 windings.. 9 of which supply 3 phase ac charging directed to voltage regulator/rectifier .. The other 2 Larger windings totally independent of stator charge windings powers the cdi
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post #8 of 30 Old 01-07-2020, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
 
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Excellent!!

Just so we are clear kill switch ON means set to the OFF position correct, and OFF is set to RUN position. Correct?

Thank you for the help. I hope that our discussion is as clear as mud for others.

Will report my findings as to complete the discussion on this thread!!

06 HD FLTRI
17 HD FLTRI
86 Honda 250 CMX250
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post #9 of 30 Old 01-08-2020, 06:22 PM
 
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yea Off would be run position

96 VS800 Intruder (sold 2018 ), 87 CMX250C Rebel,
79 CB400 Hawk (sold 93), 75 CB350 (sold 83), 71 CB350 (stolen 74)
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post #10 of 30 Old 01-09-2020, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
 
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Well I disconnected the kill switch from the harness in the cluster &*($ of a box on the triple tree and ran tests. Seems the kill switch is operating as intended. If I understand this correctly.

So in the wiring diagram, the Green and Black/White must make a connection for the switch to be in the run position?

If not. I'm grounding out between the cluster %^&* box and the CDI box. As I have continuity between ground and the black white with the black/white disconnected.

If all this is supposed to happen. CDI box is a fault if not. Im going to run a jumper from the cdi box connection to the kill switch and see if I get any different results.
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File Type: jpg IMG_6842.jpg (168.2 KB, 0 views)

06 HD FLTRI
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