Correct Engine Oil - Page 3 - Honda Rebel Forum
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post #21 of 52 Old 03-12-2017, 12:45 AM
 
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Last week snow
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post #22 of 52 Old 03-12-2017, 01:58 AM
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87 yesterday.
Nah-nah...Nah-nah-nah......

Either oil should be good, but as the conventional says currently unavailable, it depends if you want to wait.
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post #23 of 52 Old 03-12-2017, 09:02 AM
 
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It was 87 degrees where I live today, will soon be 117. I took the Rebel out for a 100 mile ride, and was glad to have that 20w50 in there. I was sweating like crazy while stopped. Temperature went up 10 degrees in one day. Anything 10w40 or higher will not have "friction modifiers" in it. This stuff is bad for any engine. While it seems that the less friction you have in an engine the better, there are other considerations, like load bearing ability. These super lightweight oils have very little load bearing ability. They were never designed to protect your engine, they were designed to get another mpg or two out of it.
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post #24 of 52 Old 03-12-2017, 11:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAP View Post
87 yesterday.
Nah-nah...Nah-nah-nah......

Either oil should be good, but as the conventional says currently unavailable, it depends if you want to wait.
Does one have any kind of advantage over the other? I found it at Walmart for the same price.

SoakedKarma you never drive it in the snow?

01-7700 i feel for you that would drive me up the wall! I might be force to drive in cold every once and awhile ;x

JerryH What gear do you use while riding in hot weather? I want the protection but event my textile jacket gets way to hot. maybe i will make a post about it see what everyone uses.

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post #25 of 52 Old 03-12-2017, 03:05 PM
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Actually, I have no idea what the difference is between those two oils.
I'd be curious to know, too.

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post #26 of 52 Old 03-12-2017, 03:27 PM
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I really like the newer 5W50 synthetics for covering a wider range of temperatures. It seems to have the best of both worlds.

The W50 part is best for air cooled engines that get hot when working hard even in cooler climates, but especially in hot climates. It doesn't break down, and maintains its film strength and lubricating ability at high temperatures.

Also, the 5W part is better for cold engines during cranking and warm up. It is thinner when cold so that the starter and battery don't have to work as hard to crank the engine, and it has a better film strength and lubrication ability while the engine is cold and during the warm up process, when a lot of the wear and damage to engines occur.

My experience with oils has been an evolution over time, much like the oil industry itself experienced, along with the evolution of the design and manufacturing process for engines and other rotating machinery. During my youth, everything used straight 30 weight oil in everything from chainsaws to diesel tractors. The only option was detergent or non-detergent. Manufacturing processes, strengths of materials, machining tolerances, and almost everything else were inferior to today's standards. Engines were shot, and needed rebuilding or replacing long before 100K miles. As manufacturing, materials, tolerances, etc. improved, clearances were tightened up, and demands on oils increased.

Multi-viscosity oils were developed to protect engines and work in hydraulic lifters over a wider temperature operating range to protect engines at both start up and high load, high temperature operation. This included operating in varying clearances as parts heated up and expanded, or cooled down and contracted with temperature changes. The evolution of designs, materials, manufacturing, and lubrication have resulted in engines that are expected to routinely exceed 100k miles. Many are now warrantied to meet this higher expectation. Engines now outlast the rest of the vehicle. Body, interior, and new features now dictate when owners trade vehicles rather than engine wear or failure.

Trucks are a prime example of the evolution. My father never got 100K out of a truck in his lifetime. My early trucks were worn out before 100k. Today, my daily driver has almost 150K miles. My brother-in-law's has around 250K miles. My brother recently donated his older truck to his son-in-law with over 350K miles and it is still going strong heading for 400K. He also donated a newer truck that he picked up used to his son with over 250K miles on it. We all want new trucks, but not because of any engine concerns. Interiors are shot, bodies are in various stages of deterioration or abuse, features are obsolete, or no longer work. However, they are paid for, mechanically as sound as ever, and the price of a new one is extremely unattractive.

Synthetics were a big part of the evolution and improvement in lubrication quality. Much research was done on improving oil film strength and film thickness. Additives were developed to improve everything about the lubricating and cleaning aspects of lubricants. One of the main drawbacks of dinosaur oils was the breakdown of its lubricating ability over time and temperature. Oils were changed at a maximum of 3K miles and more often under harsh conditions. Some people even changed their oil twice for every time they changed their filter. As oils improved, oil change intervals increased. Today, I believe every manufacturer of engines recommends synthetic multi-viscosity oils as the preferred lubricant. Some manufacturers require them in order to maintain your warranty. Many newer vehicles uses sensors to determine when you should change your oil. Oil change recommendations now exceeded 10K miles in many instances. Some people are now changing their filter twice before they change their oil. Manufacturers are trying to develop filters with higher capacity for holding contaminates in order to take advantage of the 15K and longer synthetic oil life.

My experience with a large manufacturer of heavy duty rotating machinery over a career that evolved from design engineer to test engineer to application engineer, to sales engineer to field services engineer to technical services and warranty manager, reflected this same evolution of manufacturing, materials, and lubrication. Working with lubricant manufacturers to supply and evaluate lubricants and their ability to protect bearings and other parts led to the development of testing programs and procedures for analysis. After years of using heavy aircraft grade petroleum lubricants, it became apparent not only from test results, but to the most casual observer that synthetics made a huge difference in the life of parts. While abuse, contamination, and loss of lubricant have always been a big part of industrial equipment failure, there were many that just wore out due to the lubricants not providing a sufficient oil film to prevent metal to metal wear. Today with the improvement in lubricants and changes to synthetic lubricants, almost all failures are due to contamination followed by abuse and loss of lubricant. No one ever runs one long enough to wear it out any more, since something else always gets it first.

With the Rebel, there is no oil filter, so the oil must be changed more often due to contamination from combustion byproducts. Any oil will last longer than my recommended oil change interval of 1-2000 miles. Even petroleum based oils will not break down from temperature during this short time interval. Correct viscosity to protect the engine over its entire operating temperature range is much more important to engine longevity, as long as these frequent oil changes are observed. With dinosaur oils I feel that ambient temperature affects the correct selection more than with synthetics. In cold climates, I think the new 10W40 blend is the best option for dinosaur oils. In hot climates, the 20W50 blend is probably a better option for dinosaur oils. With synthetics, I think that the 5W50 blend will cover both. Only in rare, extreme cold operating environments that are not friendly to humans would I think that the 0W40 blend is really needed. It will only be a matter of time before 0W50 is a more common and available option, and when it is, that will be my choice.

Dinosaur oils are cheaper, and if you are stretched financially, or just don't believe you should use anything better than what is minimally required, then that is what I would recommend for you. If you can afford it, and you want the best for your equipment, then synthetics are for you. For me the cost difference is not enough to consider an inferior option.

Regarding brands, during my years of working with oil suppliers to test and develop better lubricants for my company's applications, Royal Purple stood head and shoulders above the rest. Mobil 1 was a clear second. The rest were so far behind and so inconsistent that I could not recommend any of them. During that time, several of us engineers were involved in racing cars, boats, and motorcycles. We took the opportunity to test these lubricants also, and to pick the brains of the experts. The results were the same, and ended in all of us switching to Royal Purple in all our race vehicles, personal vehicles, and equipment. Not only did we switch our OEM supplied lubricants in our new equipment, our replacement parts lubricants, and our literature for OEM recommended lubricants to Royal Purple, we also switched to Royal Purple in our truck fleet and all other company vehicles and equipment. My data and industrial experience is somewhat dated, and things may easily have changed in the lubricant industry since then. Based on literature today, the rankings are still valid. Based on usage and volume of user feedback, Mobil 1 may be on top now, but that may just be due to being a larger company with a larger advertising budget, much the same as it was when I did my tests.

I do feel compelled to add that these are my OPINIONS, and YMMV.
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post #27 of 52 Old 03-12-2017, 04:22 PM
 
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Wow what an informative post i learn a lot from that, thank you 76paw! So when 0w50 becomes more common that will be your top choice for the Honda Rebel over the 5w50? I will be changing my oil every 1k miles or so with the normal stuff how often with the 5w50?

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post #28 of 52 Old 03-12-2017, 05:53 PM
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Same thing, 1000 miles regardless of the oil you use. The fact that the Rebel has no oil filter dictates the timing of the oil change, not the quality of the oil being used. The contaminants generated by the combustion process plus any metal removed from wear of bearings, journals, shafts, gears, sprockets, chains, tensioners, cams, rockers, lifters, valves, guides, holders, rings, pistons, cylinders, clutch, transmission, oil pump, and etc. that I have forgotten or omitted are all still held in the oil, and circulating around with your oil, damaging more parts with every pass through the engine. Better oils minimize some of the contaminants like metal from wear of bearings and other parts, but does nothing to minimize the contaminates from the combustion process or from the clutch, which are the majority.

With no filter to remove any of these contaminants, the only way to get rid of them is to dump your oil and start over. Honda recommends every 4000 miles, but almost everyone, including Honda mechanics, recognizes that this is too long. Most everyone recommends either 1000 or 2000 miles although some recommend as short as 1000 kilometers which is only 600 miles.

I recommend 1000-2000 miles depending on riding conditions, or once a year. If your bike is ridden on the highway, and gets up to full operating temperature with longer rides most of the time, then 2000 miles should be fine. If you ride mostly short distances, or mostly in city traffic, with a lot of stop and go, and a lot of gear shifts, including a lot of clutch engagements/disengagements, then I recommend every 1000 miles as you will be generating more contaminates. If you ride less than that I recommend at least once a year unless you hardly ride at all.

My bike never gets 1000 miles a year, because it is only used as a training bike when someone in the family gets old enough to want to learn to ride. Otherwise it is ridden only occasionally by me to run to the post office, or around the farm, or just to make sure it doesn't sit too long. Those are mostly all short rides, although I occasionally ride it further just to be sure it gets up to full operating temperature, and that everything is still operating well. I often violate my own recommendation, and go several years without changing the oil if it is being ridden less than 100 miles per year, but I think that is an exception that is valid. My bike has never gone 500 miles without an oil change and it has always had Royal Purple synthetic.

One final recommendation is to be sure to always ride your bike for long enough to bring everything up to operating temperature, and then dump the oil immediately after shut down, while it is still hot without letting it sit. This helps insure that all the contaminants circulating in the oil are dumped out with the oil, rather than settling to the bottom of the sump, and staying there, where they can be picked up again when your new oil starts circulating.
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post #29 of 52 Old 03-12-2017, 06:07 PM
 
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I just ordered a magnetic drain plug to help keep some of that metal from getting into the engine while riding. where is the best place to get the 5w50 Royal Purple synthetic oil? I checked amazon and walmart then checked online but i can't seem to find it anywhere. I can find Mobil 1 5w-50 though.

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post #30 of 52 Old 03-12-2017, 07:14 PM
 
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@Motorcycleguy anything above 45 is ridding weather for me as long as roads are dry...
have bouts of riding across patches of icy streets that last for weeks being shaded by buildings.

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