Remanufactured Stator on the 450. - Honda Rebel Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 03-22-2016, 07:51 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
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Remanufactured Stator on the 450.

So this is when I would spew out a load of profanities and obscenities, but I'm Trying to cut back on those comments.

The Stator on my 86 - 450 went out again. .. Last Week, suddenly I began loosing horse power, and sparks weren't firing right, a mile later it just died, and wouldn't start.. Based on some experience, I decided to start the bike without the headlight... Sure enough, she started right up. .. another mile down the road, she died again, but this time wouldn't start. I'm SURE the Exciter coils of the Stator got too hot. .. .. ... Which seems absurd to me! .. .. Not knowing where my Voltage/Resistance reader is, but based on some experience, I pulled off the Left Case Cover, the fly wheel, and removed the Stator. I found a few Burn spots, or more like striations, on the Exciter Coil Wraps!

The burn marks begin right at the soldered connections... .. Which are Somewhat exposed, without insulation.

So, I've Decided to Replace that ##### Stator again... ... But I REALLY don't want to replace with a used one (again.) Actually My First consideration was to Re-Wind the OEM one Myself!! But, I was having some trouble removing the Larger Exciter coil. Still plan on re Winding this myself. So for the moment, I decided to give "Rick's Motorsports" aka "Rick's Stators" another chance, But this time, with the consideration of adding Thermal/Insulation Epoxy.

Well The new Stator Just arrived in the mail and I noticed these exposed portions of the Exciter coils. Same as the previous Stator I purchased from Rick's. ... The thing that Really bothers me is the semi-exposed soldered end of the smaller exciter coil. What's up with that?? Shouldn't there be Insulation there?



Also, Seems to me that Honda moved the stator on many bike models from being mounted on the Engine to the Case Cover, for a reason. .. .. For keeping the stator a bit cooler.

Well It would be difficult to mount the stator on the Case cover, just due to the Flywheel and Crank Shaft... ... ... Well.. .. . Unless a flywheel and stator were taken from, I Don't know, say a VLX Shadow?? Either way that would be quite a Mod!


I think the easier solution is adding epoxy to one of Rick's Stators.. . So, I'm wondering if anyone knows a good High temperature Thermal Epoxy.. Or .. .. If it might be a good idea to put some sort of heat shield between the stator and the engine.. Any Ideas?

I know I need to also solve the Carb issues.. but. Still. GRR

---> 86 Rebel 450 <----
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post #2 of 18 Old 03-22-2016, 09:25 PM
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
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Sounds like your headed in the right direction. I do not know of a good high heat epoxy with out doing the research. I have seen the stators burn out after switching out too many LED lights from the originals, as the voltage regulator has to send all the unused electricity to ground. Just a thought and wondering what kind of shape your voltage regulator is in.

1986 Honda Rebel 450 28,000 miles
1987 Honda Rebel 450 5,000 miles (sold)
2009 Honda Rebel 250 8,000 miles
1983 Honda CX 650 twisted twin 6,000 miles
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post #3 of 18 Old 03-23-2016, 02:17 PM Thread Starter
 
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Old School, The Regulator is pretty much brand new.. .. about a year old now, but I haven't ridden the bike much at all, few hundred miles. The regulator is a remanufactured one by Celox (which I'm Sure was built for a different model).


.. ... .. ... .. ...


On the Epoxy situation.
I found a local shop that services Electric Motors, they do small and large Electric motor and stator re-windings. .. .. But they Won't Touch Automotive/Motorcycle Alternators/Stators.
However since My stator is new and is already wound, They told me they could dip my new stator and bake it for me... Woo Hoo Right? ... ... Well, They said I would have to clip the automotive wires first, because they would melt in the oven. They also said that the stator would be Dipped (fully immersed) in the epoxy, and they would not be painting it on! And further, they didn't want to Let me paint it on with their thermal Epoxy. So I'm Kinda giving up on their service. Really I think they just don't want to touch it.. Out of Fear I guess.

And also, they wouldn't tell me the Epoxy brand or product they use.. .. Like it's Some sort of Secret!! Then, the clerk said that there are Epoxies I could purchase at Any Hardware store that "should work fine." This was Not a statement I was looking for. Guess they just need to protect their investments on that info. Grr. This World Really does not seem to like DIY-ers!

So, ... ... Well...

I decided to give a 2 part epoxy (as suggested by the clerk) a try anyways, I purchase a Permatex Brand, 2 part Liquid epoxy called "Steel Weld" it's in a twin syrenge type dispenser...
the label says it's good up to 4500 PSI in the temperature range of -60 F to 300 F. Which is hotter than any motor oil should ever get!

My only fear Is/Was that the stuff might have suspended metals. It appears that there are... and Therefore, could be conductive. So I decided to test resistance before application.

Found one of my Multi-Meters, and tested for up to 2 Mega-ohms.. . No reading on either part (wet), over 10-20 um thick. No reading combined (semi-dry) over 10-20um.. This is a Much closer than any Wound-Wire to the Stator housing.. I think the stuff should work... I'm going to give it a shot.

---> 86 Rebel 450 <----
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post #4 of 18 Old 03-23-2016, 09:07 PM
 
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OK, there again sounds like your on the right track.
If for any reason this one burns, find someone parting out a 450 and see if you can get the entire charging system -- if it worked on there bike it should work on yours.
But I'm like you I think this may just fix the problem.

1986 Honda Rebel 450 28,000 miles
1987 Honda Rebel 450 5,000 miles (sold)
2009 Honda Rebel 250 8,000 miles
1983 Honda CX 650 twisted twin 6,000 miles
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post #5 of 18 Old 03-25-2016, 12:42 AM
 
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Just a thought about what OS touched on with your voltage regulator. If you have one that isn't really correct for the bike and rebuilt there maybe an issue there causing your stator problem.
The older style voltage regulators shunt the excess current to ground and these are the type that were used on these bikes. If there is an issue with yours then this could be the cause of a second stator failure in such a short time frame.

The later 90's series Hondas such as the CBR 600 and 1000 series went to a MOSFET style regulator that is much more stable in controlling the excess current not being used. These can be switched out with the older style regulators these bikes use with pretty well the identical wiring colour scheme.

If you burn another stator, I would seriously look at you entire electrical/charging system before blaming the stator alone.

"Common Sense" .... really isn't that common!
1976 CB 400 Four -1976 GL1000 Goldwing
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post #6 of 18 Old 03-25-2016, 08:32 AM
 
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There are some posts in this thread that I have to question. No disrespect to the people who posted.

Excess current or electricity is not directed to ground. There is no excess electricity. The stator, battery or other electrical source supply voltage. The amount of current, or wattage, provided depends entirely on load.

Where issues occur is when you draw more current, or wattage, then the stator, battery, voltage regulator is rated for.

The stator in a rebel is rated for 190 watts, or 15 amps at 12 volts. The stator will only putout as much current as needed, based on load. The lower your current draw the longer your stator and other related components will last. When things overheat is when you draw more current than your system is rated for. The stator is already in a bad spot for heat being so close to the engine.

Switching to LEDs is a good thing it reduces the load, and therefore heat, in the stator and voltage regulator.

Converting voltages and current types is not 100% efficient. it may be 75% at best. Going from over 50 V AC voltage the stator generates to the 14.6 Volts DC to charge your battery and run your lights will generate heat. Look at the heat sink on the voltage regulator. That is what does all the conversion for 50+ volts AC to 14.6 volts DC.

2003 Honda Rebel
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post #7 of 18 Old 03-25-2016, 03:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by team dougherty View Post
There are some posts in this thread that I have to question. No disrespect to the people who posted.

Excess current or electricity is not directed to ground. There is no excess electricity. The stator, battery or other electrical source supply voltage. The amount of current, or wattage, provided depends entirely on load.
Actually, excess current IS shunted to ground on the Rebel alternator and all other permanent magnet types. Otherwise your battery would be cooked by excessive charging voltage when the load on the system is very light and RPMS are high.
The Rebel alternator produces a more or less constant power output at any given RPM. There is no controllable field winding to vary the magnetic field and thus the output of the alternator to match output to load.
Automotive type alternators use electronically controlled magnetic field windings to control voltage output in response to load applied as you suggest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by team dougherty View Post
Where issues occur is when you draw more current, or wattage, then the stator, battery, voltage regulator is rated for.

The stator in a rebel is rated for 190 watts, or 15 amps at 12 volts. The stator will only putout as much current as needed, based on load. The lower your current draw the longer your stator and other related components will last. When things overheat is when you draw more current than your system is rated for. The stator is already in a bad spot for heat being so close to the engine.
Power output is the product of voltage times current. for a simple alternator, if a very high load is applied (low resistance), the voltage output will fall and for a constant power output the current will increase causing more copper resistance heat in the stator than is normal. However in this case, the battery would discharge first as voltage falls, and the alternator could not keep it charged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by team dougherty View Post
Switching to LEDs is a good thing it reduces the load, and therefore heat, in the stator and voltage regulator.

Converting voltages and current types is not 100% efficient. it may be 75% at best. Going from over 50 V AC voltage the stator generates to the 14.6 Volts DC to charge your battery and run your lights will generate heat. Look at the heat sink on the voltage regulator. That is what does all the conversion for 50+ volts AC to 14.6 volts DC.
The heat sink is mainly needed to handle the excess alternator power as the regulator shunts surrent to ground to pull down the system voltage.
Reducing existing load by replacing incandescent lamps with LED lighting is fine as long as you replace the load lost with more lighting. Otherwise you must put more current through the regulator to hold alternator voltage down. The alternator output is constant.

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1996 Ducati 900SS CR (California Bike), 1973 Norton Interstate (in a box in the basement)
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post #8 of 18 Old 03-25-2016, 03:30 PM
 
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I still monitor this site and for those of you newbies it is a great asset to have the "Duckster" back on line. The Duckster,Buickguy and a few others have been absent for awhile but the knowledge these guys have is impeccable and always accurate. Good to hear from you Duckster.......bob

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post #9 of 18 Old 03-25-2016, 08:45 PM
 
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Hello Duckster, so very glad to see your here again!!!
You explained the workings of the stator very will as you always do and a lot kinder than I would have

1986 Honda Rebel 450 28,000 miles
1987 Honda Rebel 450 5,000 miles (sold)
2009 Honda Rebel 250 8,000 miles
1983 Honda CX 650 twisted twin 6,000 miles
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post #10 of 18 Old 03-25-2016, 09:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckster View Post
Actually, excess current IS shunted to ground on the Rebel alternator and all other permanent magnet types.
There is no "EXTRA" current. Current is a product of voltage across a load. No load no current. I do not care how the voltage is produced. If you have no load on the stator no current is produced. Put an amp meter on the output with no load and it will indicate 0.

2003 Honda Rebel
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