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2009 Rebel 250 idles fine but dies with a little throttle

13K views 27 replies 7 participants last post by  shuste73 
#1 ·
2009 Rebel 250. It's my MIL's, who decided she didn't like riding. She wants me to sell it. I'm in California so I assume it's a California bike.

It sat for at least 5 years. She has a receipt showing an oil change in 2012.

It wouldn't start.

New battery. Still wouldn't start. Sprayed some starting fluid and it ran for a few seconds.
Pulled gas tank and drained - super clean inside.

I had FIL pull the carb and bring it to me. Valve was completely stuck, carb had no gas, not even the smell of gas. I replaced the valve and soaked the metal parts for about 30 min in SeaFoam (it's all I had).

FIL put the carb back in, it started. They drove it to my house (about 20 miles), the 2 side covers were COATED in oil. The fins had an oil film and they were smoking when the engine was hot.

They reported that you had to give it a lot of gas when starting off in 1st gear or it would die.

I test drove it, came home, let it cool down, the right-side spark plug was completely loose, so I torqued the spark plugs to spec.

I fired it up again so I could try adjusting the idle speed screw, and a few minutes later, before it came up to temp, it puked oil out the left side.

Got the bike vertical and checked the oil level - it was at the very top of the XXXX part. I checked with the bike vertical/level and the dipstick not screwed in. This level was AFTER it leaked oil on the drive over and AFTER it puked from the blown seal. I have a feeling it was overfilled. All parties deny any knowledge of overfilling. :(

I ordered a gasket kit, the pulley removal tool/screw thing, and a new seal.

Today, I opened it up and replaced the seal (it was chewed to hell). Put her back together and let her warm up to idle. I played with the idle screw but it didn't fix the problem. The pilot screw is missing the cap so I can't twist it to adjust that. I ordered a new pilot screw, which comes with the cap, from Revzilla. Should be here in a week or so.

FIRST PROBLEM: You're in first gear and ready to go. You apply a little throttle and she starts to struggle and will die if you don't: 1.)get off the throttle, or 2.)rev it like hell. This is without messing with the clutch. I've been riding for 8 years now, I know how to feather the clutch!

SECOND PROBLEM: I can't find the oil leak. There's oil pooling at the front and left fins near the spark plugs. But that's because the engine is tilted and the bike is on the stand. I suspect the valve cover gasket, but I wiped everything down and let it idle for about 40 minutes and didn't see anything building up. It's a head scratcher. I have the gasket kit, so I can replace it, but I'm reluctant to do anything unnecessary. Bikes that sit 5 years have a lot of dried out rubber.

THIRD PROBLEM: that same right-side spark plug appears to be blowing out exhaust. Or maybe it's leaking oil near there and that's the smoke? Anyway, the smoke appears to be concentrated in that area. It's been windy so it's hard to tell. I let it cool down again and re-checked the torque, and it's perfect.

Any thoughts/ideas? What to do next?

My thoughts are to pull the carb again and soak it in a carb cleaner overnight, then pull the valve cover (do the valve job since I have the offset wrench and the feeler gages) and replace the gasket. When I get the pilot screw cover, adjust the idle to see if that helps the stalling when you give it a little gas.
 
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#3 ·
Welcome. Have you checked the air filter and drained the puke tube? If the air filter is oiled up, it needs to be replaced.

When you opened the carb, was there any evidence of gasoline residue? If your in-laws didn't drain the carb before storage, more than likely it needs a thorough cleaning. The best way to do that is with an ultrasonic cleaner. Another way is to soak only the metal parts for at least 48 hours, in Berrymans Chem Dip. It's available at WalMart and most auto parts stores. If the carb internals are really gunked up, it may take multiple soakings to get it clean.

Some good info here: http://www.hondarebelforum.com/f39/carburetor-disassembly-and-reassembly-1743.html
 
#4 ·
Yes, I checked the air filter. The bike has 850 miles on it, and the air filter looks new, as expected.

I checked the puke tube a few weeks ago - a tiny bit of stuff came out. From what I can tell by reading a zillion posts on this forum, that's normal.

There was no evidence of residue in the carb - it was super, super clean. However, the secondary was clogged (couldn't see all the way through it), and I think there were some other ports internal to the carb that might have been clogged. There was what looked like verdigris on the valve, and the valve didn't move freely. The new one slipped in there so smoothly that I thought I'd done something wrong. Anyway, that was definitely why it wouldn't start on its own but the starting fluid got it started for a few seconds - it wasn't getting any gas at all.

The little priming plunger thing on the side was stuck and there was something clogging a port in there. I got it moving again and cleared out what I saw.

I reset the pilot screw to 2 3/4 turns out, though I'm in Sacramento, which is at sea level, and the repair manual says to turn it another 1/2 turn out. I'll do that when I take it out again.

I don't own or have access to an ultrasonic cleaner. I went to Wally World today and got a bucket of Berryman's dip and I'm going to stick as much of the carb in there as I can for 48 hours.

Discovered a black tube that my FIL left off when he pulled the carb out and put it back in last time. I don't actually know where it goes. Is there supposed to be a tube on the float bowl drain? If so, that's it because if I open the float bowl drain, it just dumps onto the transmission.

I'm going to drain out the oil and put the proper amount in, too. Don't want to blow another seal :(
 
#5 ·
Bike is pretty much new at 850 miles... but I checked and the air filter is pristine.
The puke tube had a little bit drain out, looks normal.

No gas residue in the carb - there was verdigris on the valve and it was hard to get out. The secondary was clogged (couldn't see through it), so I poked that out. Was very, very clean in the carb, though. That plunger/primer thing on the side was stuck and some of the passageways weren't looking too hot. I unstuck the plunger but it's still pretty stiff.

I got a big can of Berryman's at Wally World yesterday and I'm going to soak as many of the metal parts as I can, for at least 48 hours.
 
#6 ·
The pilot mix screw doesn't really need the cap, it is a flathead screw, and you adjust it without the cap in place anyway. Its tab is more to keep it from backing out too much on its own from vibration if the spring doesn't.
First problem sounds like the accelerator pump, that little pushrod looking thingy next to the idle stop screw. It's job is to squirt a little extra gas down the throat just as you begin to crack the throttle so it won't starve during that brief time between the throttle plate starting to open and the vacuum piston lifting to start opening the main jet; basically to prevent what you are experiencing. the rubber diaphragm could be shot, or the passage it squirts fuel through could be clogged, or both. there might also be an issue with the rubber boot of the vacuum piston so it only reacts at "lots of throttle". My 09 sat for a few years before I bought it, and I ended up replacing EVERY bit of rubber in the carb.
 
#8 ·
Sorry for posting twice before. It took over a day so I thought it didn't go through.
I agree it could be the accelerator pump. I think a passageway is clogged. The rubber looks good and it's flexible.

What I've done: finally got a chance to take the carb apart today, the bowl and the cover to the accelerator pump are soaking, as well as the primary and secondary jets. Took the valve cover off, did the valve job. One valve was too high out of spec, so I adjusted it. The other three were fine. Replaced the valve cover gasket, hoping that's gonna fix the oil leak, torqued the 2 bolts on top to spec... seemed not very tight at all, but it's to spec. Plugs look pretty black for a bike with 800 miles... but I put them back in and torqued them to spec with my inch-lb torque wrench (it has newton-meters, too). The left-side oil puking is fixed with a seal - was actually a really easy job. Drained/filled the oil to the PROPER level.

The replacement cap for the pilot screw should be here tomorrow. It's actually the whole pilot screw assembly, so I'll swap it out.

Once the carb is done soaking, I'll get it back together and adjust the idle speed with the pilot and idle screw. I'll take her out and see if she's fixed. I'll post back here either way.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Fixed!

I don't know why it takes days for my updates to appear but I'm assuming they're in a queue somewhere.

I adjusted the valves a couple of days ago. One was at .15mm where .10mm is the spec. Tightened it down so the .10mm wouldn't slide but the .08mm dragged. All three others were fine.

Got an ugly orange valve cover gasket off eBay. Used that but kept the black one just in case. Valve cover bolts don't seem like they're tight at all, but it's torqued to spec.

Today was 48 hrs. in the Berryman's. Took the float bowl, accelerator cover, and the primary/secondary nozzles out and rinsed them in water, dried them out, and put the carb back together.

I got a new pilot needle because I wanted the cap. Yes, I know you don't *need* the cap, but I couldn't get it to twist any other way while it was installed without burning my hand because the engine has to be warmed up. I swapped the whole thing and put a drop of blue threadlock in the cap. Totally worth the $20.

I picked up a $12 tach where you wrap a wire around the spark plug wire.

After a goof on my part (forgot to tighten the nuts on the carb where the fuel/air mixture enters the engine, resulting in a massive amount of air and I had to hold the throttle open to compensate with fuel... /forehead slap), she was spinning like a top.

Adjusted the idle speed and pilot screw per the carb rebuild instructions in the manual. Get the black knob to 1400rpm, then adjust the little cap to highest rpm, then the black knob again, a tweak to the cap to get rpm down 50rpm, then the black knob again.

I put the seat back on while I was waiting for her to warm up.

I put in just shy of 1.6 quarts of oil, put the bike vertical and checked the level - a hair under the top mark. Perfect.

Took some 2000 grit to wet sand a few light scratches on the tank, followed up with some Meguiar's 105, she looks great now.

Test drive: flawless. No weird issue on the highway, no stalling when you first get on the throttle from stop, and she seemed to shift a little better with fresh oil at the correct level. I made some quick stops, some quick shifts, got on and off the highway, and came to complete stops several times. Rode for about a half hour.

As of now, she's good as new. Literally, it has 860 miles on it! I've been checking CraigsList and these bikes are going for about $2800-$3500 in my area with around 2000 miles. I think I'll list it somewhere in that range, strategically priced to pull in buyers filtering for a certain price range and mileage limit.

It's a shame to let bikes sit. If you're not going to ride it, just sell it! I ran through this same crap with my first bike 8 years ago - a 1986 Honda Shadow 750 that the prior owner let sit for about 3 years because the hydraulic clutch didn't work - someone backed into him in a parking lot, knocking over his bike, warping the master cylinder cover, causing it to leak when it was on the kickstand, and not have enough pressure to operate the clutch... I spent $20 on a new cover and it was fixed. Score for me because I got that bike for $500 and later sold it for $1100 2 years later. Anyway, I had to pull the carbs and replace some parts with a kit, some of the California emissions stuff was giving me issues, and there were some other rubber parts I had to replace. Also had a Suzuki Savage that belonged to an Air Force guy and he rode it sporadically... the carb float valve had an o-ring that was leaking by, flooding it and dripping gas into the garage floor via the airbox, so I had to do a full carb overhaul on that.

Don't let bikes sit around! Ride them!

EDIT: also got an inline fuel filter because there was a little crud in the bottom of the float bowl, and some new tubing - one of the tubes to the carb tore a little when my FIL first pulled it off (he didn't twist to break the rubber free first, he just pulled). Picked up new spark plugs, arriving tomorrow, but not going to mess with them at this point because she's running great. Freebie to the new buyer.
 
#10 ·
shuste73, for some reason your posts were being sent to moderation, and being held from view until a moderator approved them. I am not sure why this was happening, but have sent a note to Administration to look at it, so hopefully it won't happen again.

Congrats on getting the bike running. Don't ride it too much, or you may decide to keep it. :)
 
#11 ·
Wonderful News! Congrats and take some time to enjoy it while waiting on a buyer. I've had a few occasion of someone seeing mine and asking when will I be ready to sell it because they are looking for one for <FAMILYMEMBER>'s first bike.
 
#12 ·
My wife wants to ride again. The aforementioned Suzuki Savage was hers, but she outgrew it, then we never got around to getting her another bike. If I kept this bike, I would do the sprocket and chain upgrade kit (about $100 on Amazon), which I hear does wonders for this bike.

She'll ride it until it sells - again, gotta ride 'em and not let 'em sit!

However, it's my FIL's girlfriend's bike, and she wants the money because she obviously didn't get into riding (thus only 800 miles), she prefers 2-up on the FIL's GoldWing.

I don't have the cash to buy it at the moment, even if I wanted to.

ALSO, the deal is that I get a 25% commission on the sale, plus cost of parts, because it wasn't running and she was going to unload it for $1200 as-is. I was like, NO! Let me fix it and pay me a cut and you'll STILL come out ahead. I spent about 10 hours on it and I expect to get about $500 in my pocket, so that's a pretty good hourly rate for something I otherwise enjoy doing.

It's a fun little bike, though. I was thiiiiiiis close to buying one as my first bike until I got wind of that '86 Shadow 750 from a friend of a friend - his wife wanted it GONE because it was costing money but was never fixed (why the shop couldn't figure it out is beyond me - they just kept flushing the clutch lines and charging him outrageous money) and he was unemployed at the time. At $500, I basically stole it from him, but his wife was happy, so it was a win-win in my eyes.

Anyway, I'm glad I got an extended chance to work on it and ride the Rebel! It's fun but it's nothing near my '09 Kawasaki Concours 1400. I might have a special casket made so I can be buried with my Connie :grin2:

This forum was a wealth of information. I used it to figure out some stuff with the carb lines, the valve job, and the crankshaft seal. Thanks!
 
#13 ·
"You apply a little throttle and she starts to struggle and will die if you don't"

Since I am experiencing the same thing on a system that was gone over three times by a good pro I'd like to know what would say was the single important thing to cause the problem.

I've got a new tank, new petcock, new choke, new needle valve and gasket, etc.

Thanks.
 
#14 ·
I'll let him respond, but suspect it was the dip in Berrymans that did the trick. Has your carb been cleaned, and if so, was it in an ultrasonic cleaner?
 
#15 ·
Don't know if it was cleaned but I assumed it was as it was a very professional shop, clean, organized, and popular. I'll call
them tomorrow and double check.

So far I have looked at a lot of posts and no one has really nailed down what it is. It is VERY frustrating to have such
a good ride and not be able to trust going out very far in confidence. Today on a 140 round trip (cities are far away from each other up here)
it hauled butt on the highways in the morning when it was cooler. By 11 I was driving in 100+ weather and a couple of times
I stopped for a few mins and it started fine but just a little throttle would start the choking sequence. My milage was 72MPG
and it never stalled when running.

Thanks
 
#16 ·
just a little throttle would start the choking sequence
"just rolling on a little throttle" is where the accelerator pump does its job, might be worth checking...
 
#17 ·
The accelerator pump was hard to move when I first took the carb apart. That's the little plunger with a rubber disc on the side, not fully inside the carb.

There's a cap, and a spring inside there, and there appear to be passageways in the cap, I imagine to pump a little gas to the carb. I soaked the cap for 48 hrs in Berryman's dip ($18 at Wally World), in addition to the float bowl and the main/secondary jets/nozzles/whatever they're called (the two brass things you screw out).

Rinsed them out, shook off the water and wiped them down, just blew on the holes with my mouth (didn't have an air compressor handy) to get any water out.

I took EVERYTHING apart. The screw holding the throttle assembly to the body was super tight, but I got it apart. That whole area there where the plunger is for the accelerator pump got pulled apart. After I got it back together, I could see that the throttle operated the plunger just slightly, then it hits a stop/metal tab so the plunger doesn't go too far.

I replaced the idle jet, the thing outside the carb with the little metal cap. I carefully followed the instructions for setting the idle (alternating between the black knurled knob and the little metal cap, plus a $12 tach from Amazon) as detailed earlier in this thread.

Put everything back together and she purrs like a kitten now. I've had a few tire kickers but it's NASTY hot in Sacramento this week (111F today!) so I don't expect anyone to suit up and head over to buy it until the weather cools :(

As flitecontrol pointed out, I, too, suspect that getting that accelerator pump cap in the Berryman's was the key. Might as well soak the float bowl while you're at it, it fits in the Berryman's and you've got to wait anyway.
 
#18 ·
http://www.hondarebelforum.com/f76/honda-rebel-250-carburetor-diagram-95.html

The accelerator cap I'm talking about is part #34.
The "throttle assembly screw" that was super tight is part #44. I had to use a box end wrench, not a screwdriver.

I had a carb kit from eBay and replaced the float valve and the float bowl gasket. The carb had multiple issues from sitting in hot weather for 5 years. The accelerator pump issue was discovered after I got it running. Should've just spent the cash on the Berryman's in the first place. It's an easy bike to work on (except getting the carb in and out had me cursing for about 5 minutes).
 
#19 ·
Just remember DON'T put any rubber or plastic parts in the ChemDip.

So to summarize, shuste73, your problem could have been solved by cleaning the carb, or getting the accelerator pump freed up, or replacing the pilot air mixture screw, or replacing the float valve, or adjusting the idle and pilot air mixture correctly, but you think that it was mostly from cleaning the accelerator pump cover.

Is that a fair statement, or was there anything else that you did all at the same time that may have fixed the problem, or did you do some of this and find that it did not help, and then do some more?

DesertRebel, the accelerator pump may be causing your problem. However, I think you should still go down that list I gave you in your other thread, in the order that I listed them, because any of those things could cause the same symptoms, and I listed them in the order of easiest to do first, followed by progressively more involved, or in depth checks. Once you get to the clean the carb step, everything else is done while you have the carb apart.

It makes no sense to take the carb apart without cleaning everything, and it makes no sense to clean it without inspecting everything, and it makes no sense put it back together without replacing everything that appears damaged or faulty, and it makes no sense to put it back together without making sure everything is functioning correctly, and it makes no sense not to adjust the idle and pilot air mixture after you put it back together and back on the bike.
 
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#20 ·
It is NOT a fair statement, I don't think. Here's the way it went down...

First, the bike sat for 5 years. In-laws decided to sell it since it wasn't being ridden.

But it wouldn't start.

I had them bring me the carb ONLY. I took it apart and soaked a couple parts in SeaFoam for 30 min. Found the float valve STUCK by verdigris, which is why it wouldn't start (no gas!). So I put in a new float valve and gasket because I had the carb kit with those parts. The accelerator pump was very stiff/stuck. The rubber perimeter was stuck to the metal. I pried it off, took it all apart, it looked okay, put it back together.

Gave it back to them (my in-laws).

They reinstalled the carb and it started up, but now exhibited a NEW problem - little bit of throttle and it tries to die, but runs if you gas it. They didn't want to mess with it, said they were going to donate to charity and take it as a write-off. I said no, give it to me, I'll fix it and sell it for you for X% of the sale price and you'll come out way ahead.

They rode it 15 miles to my place and it didn't stall, but it almost would when starting off.

I took the carb apart again and soaked it, went deeper this time. It wasn't my bike, so it made perfect sense to figure out what the immediate "doesn't start" problem was, and that was CLEARLY the stuck float valve. With this new problem, a full carb disassembly and soak was in order, which is what I then did, and that has fixed the problem.


FACT: The soak was AFTER I did the other stuff, so that other stuff wasn't the fix.
FACT: That was the ONLY problem that persisted at that point.
FACT: The idle/pilot valve was fine, I just replaced it because you had to buy the assembly to get the cap.
FACT: The "stalls on slight throttle" problem was definitively fixed by the long soak of the accelerator pump cap and the float bowl. There was only this effort at the point where this problem exhibited, and that was the soak. The soak HAD to have fixed it.

Which one was the key, the cap or the bowl? Not sure, but since the purpose of the accelerator pump is to give it a little gas on a tiny bit of throttle, my conclusion is based on Occam's Razor - the simplest answer is the most likely answer - it was the accelerator pump cap.
 
#22 ·
Thanks for clarifying, shuste73.

So now I have a couple of questions. Did you ever soak the entire carb body and jets, either the first or second time around, or just the accelerator pump cover and float bowl? If not, why?

Did you replace the pilot air mixture screw after the first time or the second time? I know you discounted this variable as a possibility, but it can cause the same symptoms, and if you only did it after the 2nd time, then it or its port is still possibly the culprit.

Did you adjust the idle speed and pilot mixture screw after the 1st time, 2nd time, or both times. If it was only the 2nd time, then you can not discount this as the possible fix either because it also causes the same symptoms.

You are probably right that a port in the accelerator pump cover or float bowl was plugged, and not allowing the accelerator pump to work properly, but I'm not sure that you can completely discard the other possibilities unless they are completely separated by the 1st and 2nd time cleanings.

I'm not trying to second guess your procedure since you obviously got your bike running fine. I'm only trying to point out to others that may read this thread now or in the future that the accelerator pump is not the only thing that can cause those symptoms. Also I am recommending to everyone that if you go to the trouble to take the carb off the bike, and tear it apart, then be sure to clean and inspect everything thoroughly and in great detail, to try to avoid having to do it twice, or in some cases 3, 4, or even as many as 5 times which has been reported on here before solving the problem.
 
#23 ·
>Did you ever soak the entire carb body and jets, either the first or second time around, or just the accelerator pump cover and float bowl? If not, why?
I soaked the jets the second time around. The carb body didn't seem to be the problem, and it wouldn't fit in the Berryman's at the same time as the other parts, anyway. If I had to do yet another soak, why not put it back together first? So I did.

>Did you replace the pilot air mixture screw after the first time or the second time? I know you discounted this variable as a possibility, but it can cause the same symptoms, and if you only did it after the 2nd time, then it or its port is still possibly the culprit.
The pilot screw was done after the second soak, upon reassembly. The idle was actually fine, just needed to be tweaked from about 1480 to 1400rpm. It was an idiot check, but I suspected my FIL farted around with the larger black knob when he was trying to get it to run.

After the first disassemble/reassemble when it had the issue where it wanted to stall on a little throttle, I had been warming up the bike so that I could check the idle to see if that was the problem, that's when it puked oil from the crankshaft seal. I didn't get to mess with the idle until I got THAT fixed, which was after the second soak.

>I'm not trying to second guess your procedure since you obviously got your bike running fine. I'm only trying to point out to others that may read this thread now or in the future that the accelerator pump is not the only thing that can cause those symptoms.
Hey, it's cool, man, a lot of people have this problem and it's good to make sure they've got the best info. I did what made sense for my particular situation with my particular problems - start easy, fix what you have to, go from there.
 
#24 ·
Alcohol doesn't actually "eat" carburetors, if it did then cleaning would be useless. C2H5-OH adds a little oxygen to the combustion to make the exhaust a little cleaner, less carbon monoxide and more carbon dioxide, which is a good thing.
The harm comes from its increased affinity for atmospheric moisture if left to sit for long periods. If you run through a tank in a reasonable amount of time, the ethanol actually keeps the dissolved moisture in suspension. Left to sit however, and it reaches saturation and rusts the tank and allows the other additives for EPA emissions and/or detergent additives to precipitate out and clog the jets and passages.
 
#25 ·
Some people forget that before ethanol was added to gas for us we used to add ethanol to our tanks to avoid frozen gas lines - at least up here in the north. The amazing thing (to me at least) is that those 'dry gas' additives are still being stocked on the shelves so they must be selling.
 
#26 ·
quick update - rode the bike a few miles per week just to keep it running right, and it never had an issue again. Sold it last week to a guy that wanted a light bike to stick on the back of his RV so he could ride every now and then while traveling (he's retired).

$2600. Not bad, I feel like it was a good price for both of us.

Thanks again to this forum.
 
#28 ·
With only 800 miles... it was a fair price. I've seen other bikes around here with 2000 miles asking $3300. I listed for $2900 to get the folks looking under $3000, hoped to get $2800, but would have gone down to $2500. Got a lot of lowballers offering $2000.

MIL changed the deal because she just wanted to be done with it, and registration was due in July. She said just pay her $1500, which was nice because it allowed me to re-register in my name and give her the US Army Veteran plates, which probably was keeping buyers away (she was keeping the plates, needed extra DMV forms). I promised her $1500 minimum if the 25% didn't work out to giving her $1500. That was the number in her head and was happy to get it off her property and out of her mind.

I put in $100 in parts and supplies (like the Berryman's), spent $140 on plates/registration/tax when I bought it from her, so I made about $850 profit. I spent about 10-12 hours on it, so it's a good hourly rate. I enjoy the work, too, so that helps.
 
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