Fridgitator

There was at one time, but I don't know if it's still available. It retailed for over $300.

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JunkyardDog

The Mapam forward controls are still listed on a few sites, but are no longer available. Everybody sold out a long time ago, even at $300+ But IMO, they were seriously overdone, more something for a show bike than a functional improvement. I don't like artsy bikes, I prefer the more agricultural look, with a few rough edges. That's one of the reasons I hate the newer side covers, with their fake chrome strip designed to blend in with the fender rails. I prefer the bits and pieces look. That look has sold a lot of Harleys. And while the '66 Bonneville was and is a thing of beauty, it certainly had it's share of rough edges. Jerry.

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Fridgitator

Decorative elements aside, they were "overbuilt" in order to make sure that they could take whatever the public might throw at them. The engineering, testing, and verification that goes into bringing a product like that to market is expensive, as is liability if you fail to cover all the bases before doing so. "Hasn't hurt anyone yet" might be good enough for handing out free advice in a forum, but it doesn't cut it in the marketplace.

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JunkyardDog

A certain company that builds bobber kits doesn't go through any of that. They use CAD for testing, and have a CNC mill for turning out the parts. That's how they are able to keep coming up with bobber kits for so many bikes so quickly. After design, fitting, and virtual testing, they put the parts up for sale on their web site. Most of these parts are not rocket science, and it is pretty easy to tell by simple testing if it is strong enough. If you want to do it for real, just apply force to it, and measure how much force it takes to break it.


It is pretty obvious that MC Enterprises (I don't mind mentioning their name because their products suck, let them sue me) a very old company with a long reputation for mediocre products, doesn't do much testing on their products. While many people have had no problems with them, they are obviously marginal. Their motor mount highway pegs did not fit properly, and even after I got them on the only way they would go, they bent when I put my feet on them. I built a cross brace that tied into the front down tube to hold them together, but they were still several inches too high, and I could see no way to lower them without welding on downward extensions for the pegs, and adding yet another cross brace, so I gave up and fabricated my own setup. And as you said, it "hasn't hurt anyone yet". It also hasn't broken yet. Jerry.

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Fridgitator

If your point was that MC Enterprises makes inferior products, I'm not here to dispute that. What I dispute is your continual advice to beginning riders that they alter their bikes from factory specs based on your Home Depot model. You have made the point ad nauseum that you have been riding since hard pavement was invented, and no one here disputes the fact that you are an experienced auto mechanic. You also have been active in this forum long enough to know that many people who read this forum are beginners to motorcycling, and will read your words as though they apply to them when in fact much of your advice is applicable only to those who have enough riding experience to make their own educated decisions. When you fail to make such a distinction in your posts, such as advising people who haven't even learned how to ride a stock bike that they should make fundamental changes that can potentially injure them, I feel obligated to speak up. I have no objection to anyone making an educated decision to modify their bike any way they see fit. I emphatically object to anyone trying to persuade a new rider to alter their bike in a way that may hurt them.

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JunkyardDog

I absolutely do not condone anyone who is not an experienced rider and who understands the consequences of the modifications they are making to make any kind of structural modification to their bike. I highly recommend that a new rider learn on a stock bike. But if they are very tall, I do not recommend that bike be a Rebel. Tall people simply do not fit safely on it. Learn on a Nighthawk 250, or some other bike with more room. I have seen some people here make some extremely dangerous modifications to their bikes, modifications so dumb that an experienced rider would not even consider riding the thing, unless it was just circles in a parking lot at slow speeds, just to see how long it would take to fall apart.

But for an experienced rider who wants to ride a Rebel, but doesn't fit, relocating the pegs is about the only option. Many here have done it. I see nothing dangerous about it. My relocated pegs are in the exact same position relative to the seat as the stock pegs on my Vulcan 750. Does that mean the Vulcan 750 is not safe, because the stock pegs are too far forward, keeping in mind that it is a cruiser? Why do the Yamaha V-Star 250, the Suzuki GZ250, and the now discontinued Kawasaki Eliminator 125 have pegs much farther forward than the Rebel? Why was the one big complaint against the Rebel due to lack of legroom when Motorcyclist magazine did a comparison between it and the other 3 bikes listed above?. I see absolutely no danger in simply moving the pegs 4" farther forward, but I do see a lot of potential danger in how it is done. Obviously, someone who has no knowledge of motorcycles, basic mechanics, or basic engineering isn't going to know how to do it safely. That's why I wish someone would come out with a "kit" for doing it safely. The simple fact is that the Rebel is simply unridable by a taller person without severe pain. I wish Honda had done what Yamaha, Suzuki, and Kawasaki did, and put the Rebels pegs in the right place to begin with. But then again, there are people 5' tall out there that fit the stock Rebel perfectly. So back to square one. I don't have the answer. But I do know what the problem is, and what the answer was for me. I would like to here from others out there who have relocated their pegs/shifter/brake, and see if any of them have had issues with their mod. I, for one, haven't.

Being a mechanic, experienced rider, amateur engineer, and tinkerer in general, I am just trying to help people get more enjoyment with less pain out of their Rebels, and do it safely. My design is light years ahead of MC Enterprises highway pegs. I was amazed that a company would even sell something so crappy. I used heavy (1/4") thick steel and high grade bolts in my design, and designed it so that even if one bolt did break, it would still stay in place. IMO, simply removing the front fender is more dangerous than what I did (yeah, I tried that too)

I would like to hear some other opinions on this. Negative or positive. Jerry.

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Fridgitator

You've been advising anyone who reads this forum to make structural alterations to their bike with no consideration to their level of experience. Where have you ever prefaced one of your 'forward controls' post with an advisory that this should only be done by someone with experience?

I can't disagree that there have been some dumb ideas posted here. Some of them have been mine. Very few other than yours have been presented as being authoritative based on your years of experience.

[quote] But for an experienced rider who wants to ride a Rebel, but doesn't fit, relocating the pegs is about the only option. Many here have done it. I see nothing dangerous about it. My relocated pegs are in the exact same position relative to the seat as the stock pegs on my Vulcan 750. Does that mean the Vulcan 750 is not safe, because the stock pegs are too far forward, keeping in mind that it is a cruiser? Why do the Yamaha V-Star 250, the Suzuki GZ250, and the now discontinued Kawasaki Eliminator 125 have pegs much farther forward than the Rebel? Why was the one big complaint against the Rebel due to lack of legroom when Motorcyclist magazine did a comparison between it and the other 3 bikes listed above?. I see absolutely no danger in simply moving the pegs 4" farther forward, but I do see a lot of potential danger in how it is done. Obviously, someone who has no knowledge of motorcycles, basic mechanics, or basic engineering isn't going to know how to do it safely. That's why I wish someone would come out with a "kit" for doing it safely. The simple fact is that the Rebel is simply unridable by a taller person without severe pain. I wish Honda had done what Yamaha, Suzuki, and Kawasaki did, and put the Rebels pegs in the right place to begin with. But then again, there are people 5' tall out there that fit the stock Rebel perfectly. So back to square one. I don't have the answer. But I do know what the problem is, and what the answer was for me. I would like to here from others out there who have relocated their pegs/shifter/brake, and see if any of them have had issues with their mod. I, for one, haven't.[quote]

There are numerous design flaws in any product on the market. Failure to design something to fit every possible body configuration isn't one of them.

I would like to believe that, Jerry, but your posts indicate otherwise. You have consistently advised newbies to defy the wisdom of MSF training philosophy in the interest of furthering your personal habits. Including, but not limited to telling newbies not to wear gloves, and hard soled shoes.

Yep, your peg design is way ahead of theirs. your forward control design, on the other hand, does not anticipate all the factors that may come in to play for an inexperienced rider. Just for sake of discussion, what is the minimum clearance between the front tire, and the apparatus? Say, for example that someone is navigating a turn at 22 mph, and the bike is leaning at 12 degrees. how large an object could pop up between the the front wheel and your nifty apparatus without tweaking your Home Depot stuff to the point of bending it sideways? If you can't answer that, you have no business trying to sell your product to anyone that can't even understand that they might have to understand the question.

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JunkyardDog

Nothing I have ever posted here, other than basic mechanical facts, was ever meant to be taken as "authoritative" They are simply the opinions of a lifelong motorcycle enthusiast.

I have always recommended full face helmets, MSF classes, reading the Hurt Report, and beginners not making modifications to their bikes that would significantly change the way the bike handled. My "personal habits" were learned over many decades and hundreds of thousands of miles, and they have worked. Over and over again. I have taken both the beginners and experienced rider courses. About the only thing I disagree with them on, is their ATGATT thing, which I find completely absurd. If someone wants to do it that way, it's their choice, but to me, it defeats the whole reason for riding in the first place. You want that much protection, get a cage, with air bags, side impact door beams, safety bumpers, seatbelts, and anti lock brakes. Of course, all that safety stuff is worthless if you use a cell phone while attempting to drive it, and don't see that 18 wheeler coming your way.

I have gone on a personal crusade against cell phone using drivers, which I believe to be one of the biggest dangers to all motorcyclists, especially beginners.

I do not wear heavy gloves or inflexible boots because I believe they interfere with a riders ability to properly operate the controls, which is likely to cause an accident. They also take most of the enjoyment out of riding for me. I always dress and ride to prevent an accident, rather than to have one. Like the old saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" I apply this to riding. It seems to work, I've never crashed. I have heard so many people tell beginning riders that they are likely to crash, and to get old beat up bikes to learn on, because they "will" drop it. With that attitude they probably will. But they don't have to. Anyone who goes around dropping bikes probably shouldn't be on one. I have never dropped a street bike. I consider dropping a street bike to be an accident, same as a collision.


The Rebel is simply not suitable for a taller person in stock unmodified form. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Aside from my own experience with the Rebel, I have read numerous post here asking what could be done to improve the riding position.


There is no interference between my forward controls and the front wheel, and since I kept them at stock height, ground clearance in turns is unaffected. What I built is stronger than the Rebel frame itself, and is not going to bend unless run over by a cement truck.

I just started, before reading this post, advising beginners and anyone else who does not have a good comprehension of mechanical things to carefully consider any modifications they might make, including relocating the footpegs. I have also suggested that nobody remove the front fender, run a really big tire in the front, or use solid struts in the back, because after careful calculations, and in the case of removing the front fender, actually trying it myself, I believe these modifications are not safe. But if they want to do it, they are going to do it anyway.



I have even seen bikes built by people here with no front brake. Talk about unsafe, you might as well just shoot yourself and get it over with. The Rebels rear brake is worthless, even on such a small bike.

And while I do not use turn signals, I have advised beginners not to do this, they need to keep both hands on the bars.

I have also stated that I do not believe side mounted tail/brake lights are safe because they cannot be seen by a car driver right behind you, on the opposite side from where the light is.

I certainly have no desire to see anyone get seriously injured or killed on a motorcycle. But riding a motorcycle involves considerable risk, at least 10 times the risk of driving a car (that is a conservative estimate) and any rider needs to understand that, and figure it into their decision about whether to ride a motorcycle or not. It also takes way above average car driver skill to even come close to riding a motorcycle semi safely. IMO, there is no safe way to ride a motorcycle in traffic.


Motorcycles are not for everyone, and in the end, it is up to the individual person whether they are for them. Again, IMO, if they are not totally committed, and have a really good idea of what is involved, and absolutely know for sure they want to ride, then motorcycles are not for them. Any person with that much knowledge should know what modifications are safe, and what isn't, without even having to ask. They should have the ability to research it on their own. When you are out there on a motorcycle in traffic, you are on your own, and you will have to make thousands of decisions, some in less than a 10th of a second, that may very well mean whether you live or die. There will be nobody to ask. Hopefully you will make the right decision. I have, 99+% of the time. I have done what a lot of riders have never done, rode for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles without crashing or getting injured in any way. Part skill, part experience, and part luck. But in no way do I consider myself an expert, and have never claimed to be. Jerry.

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flitecontrol

My comments are in blue.

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I'm keepin' all the left over parts. I'm gonna use 'em to build another bike!

2001 Rebel 250, 1989 Vulcan 750
Putting your bike info in your signature helps others help you!

flitecontrol

In regards to the first statement, I don't see how an understanding of strength of materials or structural engineering knowledge is gained just by riding. Believe it takes more than that.

The second statement, minus the last sentence, is someting we've read quite often. It sounds like you're beating your own drum. I'm glad you are a safe rider and have never had an accident on the street. I hope that continues until you choose to give up riding.

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I'm keepin' all the left over parts. I'm gonna use 'em to build another bike!

2001 Rebel 250, 1989 Vulcan 750
Putting your bike info in your signature helps others help you!