Dutch

@buickguy: you wrote:

For Dutch, the essence of the firearm debate is safety.
From what I read of his thoughts, he believes that without the availability of legal firearms, everyone is put on a more even footing.
Dutch, please correct my if I am misunderstanding you here.


I guess I did mean some sort of safety, but not that everyone is put on a more even footing. What I meant is that the easy access to illegal guns is what can cause more people to do wrong and harm people. Yes, of course cars can be a deadly tool, just as a fork or a spoon can be. But that's not my point. I guess what I should have asked for is data on how many murders per head of the population were caused by (illegal) gun ownership. Personally I believe that this number would always be higher in your country than in ours. Not meaning that we are in any way better than you guys, but that IS often used as an example over here when discussing the relatively liberal US point of view on gun ownership. Once again, not traying to discuss your constitutional rights, but merely trying to understand and hoping to bring across some of the frowns we've got upon the constitutional right to bear arms (in the context of the above).

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JunkyardDog

Consider that shooting at Virginia Tech, where 30+ people were killed by a deranged madman. Had there been one person in there with a legal gun and some marksmanship skills, there is a good possibility they might have been able to take this lunatic out, and saved who knows how many lives. They could also have gotten themselves killed, but the odds of survival for all those people would have been a whole lot better. Had I been in there, I would have certainly done my best to stop the killer, IF I had anything to do it with. But guns are banned in schools, so this freak had nothing to be afraid of. Jerry.

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Dutch

Well Jery, not to stir up things badly, but the general consensus over here was that the chances of that happening over here are very slim. This because of the fact that guns over here are not that easy to come by. Ok, there are other ways to kill people than with a gun, but I think you catch my drift. And yes, it was a freak / deranged madman, but still one with guns.

I believe that this is the worst side effect of the constitutional right to bear arms. And that's the problem with mankind: there will always be f*ckups who misuse certain liberties.

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Fridgitator

There are cultural differences that come into play as to how people deal with each other, as well as how they feel about being told how they can live. Our culture is relatively new compared to others, and the social memory of rebelling from another nation to become a free state is still ingrained in us from our earliest schooling. Most of us find the idea of a government telling us to give up our personal firearms to be cause for alarm. That can take some pretty ugly directions at times.

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kjohnson

Rule #9: Always carry a knife.

Useless, some say, until I need it. And a knife is a great tool for many occasions too.

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Kyle Johnson
"So, I'm new at this. Feel free to correct me. "
In my Garage (er... Parking Spot):
1986 Honda Rebel CMX250 *SOLD*
2004 Honda Shadow VLX 600

Colours

The right to bear arms, I believe was due to the United States having no effective standing army at the time. Culture is a valid point, but i most strongly disagree with Junkyard dog saying that arms being allowed in school could have prevented this. Arms allowed in the hands of minors would excerbate the problem and not provide a remedy.

jd, i avidly read a lot of the mechanicaly minded posts you make. but on this matter i can no longer maintain my silence.

I am not really here for politics, just looking for tips to help me maintain my bike and ride safe so this will be my only comment. I am not one for arguments that you cannot resolve face to face.

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JunkyardDog

This was a university, I don't believe there were any minors there. I meant someone who would qualify for a concealed weapons permit in my state. There are a lot of requirements.

For example, would allowing teachers, and other qualified people have guns on school property be a good idea? I have to admit I don't know. One thing I do know, is that since my state started allowing concealed carry, which requires an extensive background check, plus training, and taking a test, all at the applicants expense, there has not been a single gun related crime committed in the state of AZ by anyone with a concealed weapons permit.


There is no valid reason for not allowing any law abiding citizen to have guns, and criminals get their guns illegally, and will always have them.

Colours, since you are from the UK, and I am from AZ, which still has a lot of the "old west" traditions, I can definitely see how culture would affect our opinions. Jerry.

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Colours

Maybe I could have phrased that better, young people was the term i should have used rather than minor. I am familiar with Virginia Tech as my ex went there.

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JunkyardDog

Even I agree that young people and guns are not a good mix. They lack the experience, skill, and wisdom to know what to do with a gun, and would probably panic in such a situation. Many young people are also simply not emotionally mature enough to have a gun, and many people never get comfortable with the idea of a gun.

I am 51, have had guns all my life, have a concealed weapons permit, and a considerable amount of firearms training at the local police department (being a long term employee of the city has it's perks), so I am obviously a bit biased on the subject. I do agree that just because someone is not a criminal does not make it a good idea for them to be carrying a gun. If they have not had the necessary training, are not comfortable with having a gun, and don't know if they would be able to actually use it or not, they should not have it. In a self defense situation, it is likely to get them killed rather than protecting them. Jerry.

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Twister

I'm with Jerry on this one.

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Every ride is a joyride on a Rebel

1986 CMX250C "Miss Triplehorn" 17K miles
1984 GL1200A 106K miles