flitecontrol

Well, if he KNEW I had a gun, and KNEW I would probably use it, and he still wants to break in, then he's a few bricks shy of a load (slang for he's crazy) and probably needs to be taken out of the gene pool. Crooks are risk takers to begin with. Fortunately, many are just plain dumb. Most tend to do things on impulse rather than with much forethought. Most that break into a house here are unarmed.

I don't remember the country the gentleman was from, but we got into a discussion of our respective countries justice/penal systems. His country was poor and could not afford large jails/prisions. If you were found guilty of a crime, you were not locked up or separated from your family or society. You went to work, came home, ate and interacted with your family, but by a certain time each night, you had to report to the local jail where you would be required to spend the night. In the worning you returned home, had breakfast, and off to work. There was almost no stigma attached to being a convict, and society did not have the burden of supporting the criminal or their family.

So I asked him, "What happens if they decide they don't want to report to jail, or continue to break the law?" His answer was simple "The police shoot them.". Now that is a justice system that teaches personal responsibility! Those that don't quickly learn that society will not tolerate certain behavior don't get a second chance! There can't be many career criminals in that country.

I don't believe coddling criminals is in their best interest or that of society. I believe in the two strikes and you're out system. After a first conviction, if you are found guilty of any felony, the mandatory sentence would be execution.

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JunkyardDog

IMO, an unloaded gun is completely worthless. While I do use my guns for target shooting (I don't hunt anymore, I decided I didn't like killing animals), I have one gun in particular which I purchased with the express intent of using it for home defense. It is a Beretta 9000s 9mm auto, and I keep it laying 10" from my bed, loaded, one in the chamber and 10 in the clip, with the safety off. I can grab it and pull the hammer back in less than a second. I have done some target shooting with this gun at the local police range, just to become familiar with it, how it shoots and how it feels, in case I ever need it for self defense.

I also have a State of AZ concealed weapons permit, and often carry it with me on motorcycle and car trips.

As I said, I would shoot anyone who broke into my house if I got the chance. And I would probably not shoot them just once, I would put all 11 rounds into them. As the old saying goes, "my home is my castle" and nobody is going to break in and get out alive if I have my way. Of course, I could be the one who got shot and killed. I believe that keeping my gun ready and close at hand puts the odds slightly in my favor.

If they are not in your house, you have to be careful. Then you have to prove they were armed and trying to shoot you. This is a particularly dangerous situation, as they can shoot and kill you while you are trying to figure out what the deal is. I sure wouldn't want to shoot an unarmed person, unless they had broken into my house. Jerry.

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Fridgitator

I don't keep guns in my house for the purpose of defending the castle. I have them here because this is where I live, and this is where I store things when I'm not using them. I would use them to defend the homestead if it came to that, but I don't keep them loaded, and I don't even store any ammo in the same part of the house.

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JunkyardDog

Nothing wrong with that, if that is your choice. I have a lot of stuff stored at my house to, but that one item is there specifically for self defense. Fortunately, AZ has some pretty decent laws about protecting yourself in the event of a home invasion. If I heard noises outside, I probably wouldn't even go out there to check it out, even armed. That's a good way to get ambushed. If I actually thought someone was in my yard, I would call the cops, tell them it sounded like someone was trying to break in, so they would get there in a hurry, then sit back with the gun in my hands waiting for them to break in, till the cops got there. Jerry.

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Buickguy

I wasn't going to get involved here because I dislike mixing my recreation with work.
I am a firearms instructor by profession.

Dutch, I think you may have some mistaken impressions of the USA and state laws.
On our Federal side, the Gun Control Act of 1968 established, among other things, prohibited persons. Certain persons may NOT own, possess or transfer any firearm or ammunition. Those prohibited include, anyone convicted of a crime PUNISHABLE by more than one year in prison.
Even if they are sentenced to less, if it COULD have carried more than a year, they may no longer have guns (legally). Other prohibited persons would include, but are not limited to, those who use controlled substances (narcotics) illegally, those addicted to controlled substances (narcotics) whether they got those drugs legally or not. Those dishonarably discharged from the miltary (the military version of a felony) in 1986 an amendment was added to include those convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence.
It is also a Federal felony to knowingly provide a firearm to prohibited persons.
GCA '68 also requires anyone engaged in the business of buying and selling firearms to obtain a license. Know as an FFL or Federal Firearms Licensee, they are the only legal dealers in the USA, despite what you might hear about otherwise.

The national firearms act of 1934 imposed a tax on gun manufacturers, importers and dealers. It also imposed a special tax on the transfer of certain types of firearm know as class three firearms.
Class three include,
Short barrel shotguns and shotguns less than 26 inches overall. Short barrel for a shotgun is defined as less that 18 inches of barrel.
Short barrel rifles and rifles less than 26 inches overall. Short barrel for a rifle is defined as less that 16 inches of barrel.
Silencers.
Short barrel smooth bore firearms
ANYTHING capable of automatic fire, whether that be full auto, burst fire, or select fire (switchable between single shot per trigger squeeze to multi shot) It does not matter if it is a pistol, like the MAC 10, rifle like the BAR, or pistol caliber carbine like the Thompson sub machine gun. By the way, sub-machine gun means pistol caliber, General Thompson coined this phrase. It shoots the same .45 cartridge as the 1911 pistol use by the US in WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.
Under this law, parts that make a firearm into a class three are just as regulated.
It is unlawful to own, possess, or transfer any firearm made, possessed or transfered in violation of this law

In order to own one of these class three firearms legally, one must fill out the form requesting to buy one, get the local cheif of law enforcement to sign off on the application, pay a transfer tax and then undergo an extensive FBI background check. The seller of the firearm also undergoes an FBI background check. Then, if approved the firearm may be transferred. The attorney general mantains a list of these firearms

The firearms owners protection act of 1986 remeoved all new manufactured automatic firearms from ownership by citizens.
Therefore any citizen wanting a full auto must buy one made before a certain date in 1986. I can't recall exactly but I believe it is March 19 1986.
So that means a limited supply that gets more limited all the time.

You may be interested to know that since NFA '34 only one class three firearm has been involved in a criminal act and I'm sorry to say that one was committed by a law enforcement officer.

The Brady act established the National Instand Criminal background Check System (NICS for short) In order to purchase a firearm in USA legally, a dealer must have the buyer fill out and sign BATFE form 4473, Then verify the buyers identity with a photo ID. The dealer then enters the buyers name and information into the NICS system which delivers and answer of Proceed, Denied, or Delayed. Proceed and Denied are self explaintory.
Delayed means the dealer must wait three business days and if NICS delivers no further information, the dealer MAY proceed with the sale. Many dealers will not sell on a delay and that is their right.

There are more!
Each state has it's own laws that may make it even more restrictive than federal law.
Each state has it's own laws on the use of deadly force.
I know my state laws best and can tell you that property may not be defended with deadly force in my state.
Keep in mind that dealy force doesn't mean firearms alone.

In a society where firearms don't exist, the sword, club and other implements were used. Those implements favor the strong.
The firearm makes a small elderly lady just as able to defend her life as a young strong man. With swords only, the elderly lady wouldn't stand a chance.



To borrow from the History Channel:
The gun is an invention that has been both praised and denounced, served both hero and villian alike, and carries with it certain moral responsibilities.
To understand the gun is to better understand history

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2002 FSC600 SilverWing

1983 Yamaha Midnight Virago XV920MK

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Fridgitator

I have lived in a few different states with different laws. Based on my personal observations, when potential burglars know that they may get the death sentence on the spot without benefit of trial, they are often less likely to enter property. Not always, of course, but often enough. I think it's the instant and irreversible nature of getting shot that acts as more of a deterrent than a possible trial. The other end of that is the 'Get tough on crime' mentality that drives many of our lawmakers. In order to look as though they are addressing crime problems, many pass laws with ever stiffer penalties for crimes that are supposed to deter criminal behavior. Having a gun during the commission of a felony is a prime example. Automatic twenty years in many places. Is that an incentive for someone who already carries a gun to go peaceably?

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Dutch

Great info and I appreciate the time you guys took to enlighten me. As said before: I think we live in completely different worlds, hence my ignorance on the matter.

However, I still do feel that in a society where one cannot buy a gun that easily, the less stable person will not posses one easily, thus cannot use one that easily. True or false? And yes, everybody can get a gun from everywhere, but this is just like with buying anything illegal: over here everybody can buy pot, even if you're under the age of 16 (which would make it illegal), because it is being sold in a lot of places ('coffeeshops').

Might not be the best comparison, but I think you gt the idea: make it more available and it will be easier to do wrong.

Still, I personally would like to see us over here get more freedomin protecting our house and property. If a burgular breaks into my house and I would happen te knock him out cold, there's still a good chance he's going to sue me for causing harm. How stupid is that?!

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flitecontrol

Here we have a saying that fits the above scenario: The tail is wagging the dog.

__________________
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2001 Rebel 250, 1989 Vulcan 750
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JunkyardDog

"If a burglar breaks into my house and I would happen to knock him out cold, there's still a good chance he's going to sue me for causing harm. How stupid is that?!" Not to sound crude here, but that can and has happened. They could also come back and kill you later. Those are reasons why, if someone breaks into your house, and you can legally shoot them, as you can here in AZ, you want them dead. You don't want them around to cause you or anyone else problems later on.


For those in the U.S. who choose to have a gun for self defense, find your state laws concerning what is legal and what isn't, and study it till you have memorized it. It might save your life, or save you from a lengthy prison sentence.


Buickguy got everything right. The one problem with the scenario he described, is that most criminals get their guns illegally, and it is very easy to do. There are virtually an infinite number of ways to get a gun illegally. Even me, a law abiding citizen with no criminal record, could take a large amount of money out and come back with a truckload of illegal guns. The cops even know about some of these sources, but just like known drug sources, they rarely do anything about them. We have gang members around here, with criminal records, that have fully automatic weapons. These are not vintage collector guns, but fairly new ones. Most of them come across our southern border. The Israeli made UZI is probably the most common. Jerry.

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Buickguy

There in is the issue. The guns involved with criminal activity are already illegal. I've had this discussion with foreigners who think that anyone can go in to a gun shop and walk out with a MAC 10 and can't understand why we don't make that illegal.
Even a lot of our own citizens are grossly misinformed and think the same way.
You would not believe their surprise to find out that it is already illegal and has been so for quite some time.

Dutch describes a burglar breaking in to his home and he as the homeowner being sued for inflicting harm on the intruder.
That happens in the USA as well more often that you would think, especially with the perspective of being from the Netherlands.

I am not as familiar with Arizona law concerning firearms and defense but I do know it is one of the more permissive states for defense.

East coast states tend to be far more restrictive as is California.
Many midwest states are also highly restrictive on citizen self defense.
Illinois requires firearm owners to register and possess a valid Firearms Owner Identification. (FOID, in the parlance)

For Dutch, the essence of the firearm debate is safety.
From what I read of his thoughts, he believes that without the availability of legal firearms, everyone is put on a more even footing.
Dutch, please correct my if I am misunderstanding you here.

I submit that just the opposite is the case.
With a firearm, an elderly, infirmed or weak person can still defend their life with reasonable chances of success. Without that tool, the strong can far more readily victimize the weak. I will grant that such victimization is appalling and there certainly is no honour in victimizing the weak but human nature is what it is and unfortunately there are those who choose to sink to that.

The right of self defense in inherent in the right to live.
If one has a right to live life as they see fit, without fear, threat or retaliation from anyone else, providing one does not interfere with anyone else's right to the same self determination, then one has the right to defend that life.
If one has a right to defend one's life, the tools to make that possible must also be a right.

Firearms are not as ubiquitous as you might think. If they were, the usefulness of them would not be debated. Any useful tool can be misused or used for criminal intent. Let us take the automobile as an example.
A very useful tool! It allows an individual mobility to travel as they see fit.
The automobile's utility enhances individual liberties when used legally and correctly.
Automobiles have been used for criminal activity. Bank robbers have used them to facilitate escape (the getaway car) Smugglers have used to to transport illicit items. Careless use has resulted in many accidental deaths and disfigurement.
If we make the same argument that banning automotive devices (cycles included) would curtail these activities most people would readily dismiss the idea since the utility of the auto is well known and appreciated by a vast majority of the people.

Firearms are not as well understood. Their utility is not as readily visible to the average person as the auto's is since firearms are considerably more rare.
None the less, their utility is just as valuable and just as often used for legal and beneficial purposes as the automobile.

__________________

1987 CMX250C Rebel

2002 FSC600 SilverWing

1983 Yamaha Midnight Virago XV920MK

Put your bike's year and size in your signature.
It helps others help you.