tailgater - Page 2

JunkyardDog · 03-23-2010, 05:39 PM

There are plenty of idiot drivers out there who are busy doing something other than driving, and not paying attention to what they are doing. But, I have been purposely harassed by a few people, who will run up real close behind you, then back off, then do it again. This is clearly an intentional threat on their part, using their vehicle as a weapon. Such a person is obviously mentally unbalanced, which makes them even more unpredictable and dangerous. Like I said, on a faster bike, you can just leave them in the dust, but not on a Rebel. At that point I would have to make a decision. But like the old saying goes, I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

In todays sick and twisted society, it's not just on a bike you need to be armed, it's pretty much everywhere. That is why I went through police firearms training, which includes a large section on what the laws are, and got my concealed weapons permit.

If you legitimately believe someone is trying to kill you, or about to kill you, you are not likely to be convicted of anything for defending yourself. You would rarely if ever actually need to fire a gun, simply looking at someone standing with legs apart, holding a gun with both hands, pointed directly at them, would be enough to scare them off. Then YOU call the police, and report what happened. A vehicle is most certainly considered every bit as much a deadly weapon as a gun is here in AZ, and using either one to threaten someone with is considered a felony. I realize different states have different laws, but AZ laws tend to favor self defense. And the fact that I have both a concealed weapons permit, an ID card from the City of Chandler police department, and a spotless record would definitely work out in my favor.

I am not some nutcase looking to shoot somebody, in fact I have peace signs on both my vehicles. But I also would not hesitate for an instant to shoot someone who was trying to harm me or a member of my family. I sleep with a loaded 9mm inches away from my bed, one in the chamber, and the safety off. Jerry.

JunkyardDog · 03-23-2010, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colours

basically i do the same as i do in a car...i slow down. Think i should have a bumper sticker on the car "i slow down for tailgaters" .

I do like the idea of the left hand wave and will do it the next time it happens but have found slowing down works a treat (it also decreases their stopping distance). The important thing is not to feel pressurised into increasing to a speed you are uncomfortable or may get a ticket.

I do like the bumper sticker "this car may be old,,,but its paid for,,,,and in front of you"

Around here, especially out in the country, everybody is in a hurry, and I have no problem pulling over and letting someone buy if they don't become to aggressive. They rarely ever do. 99% of the time, they just go by, and some even wave. But intentional aggressive driving is a felony in AZ, and carries about the same penalties as a DUI.

In Texas, you can shoot someone for just being on your property if it is fenced and clearly posted. Here in AZ, they have to actually be inside the house, but you don't have to prove anything beyond that. If someone breaks into your house, their fair (and legal) game, which means you shoot first, then don't worry about the rest of it. Hopefully you kill them, while you legally can, because you don't want them around to cause you problems later. I would just put all 11 rounds into them. Jerry.

**cagie** · 03-23-2010, 06:16 PM

I think the point is that we as resposible motorcycle enthusiasts, regardless of your personal feelings, should advocate the RIGHT thing to do.

The RIGHT thing to do is just what was said before, try to get the persons attention with the proper hand signal OR pull off to let them by.

Anything other than that is on YOUR head and the local administration will deal with it as allowed by the law.

JunkyardDog · 03-23-2010, 07:16 PM

Totally agreed. IF they are just being a nuisance, and not actually trying to run over you. And if you pulled over and they went on by. Again, I have been in a couple of situations where someone would go on by, then pull over up ahead, and wait for you to pass them, so they could get on your tail. This obviously goes beyond what the OP was talking about, but it does and has happened. Again, you use whatever means is at your disposal to protect yourself. On a fast bike you just take off and leave them. Otherwise, you are going to have to assume a more defensive posture. If I were actually hit by a tailgater, I would consider that assault with a deadly weapon (and so would the state of AZ) and you would be expected to take the least dangerous course of action available to you. If simply shooting out a tire would stop the assault in progress, then that's the thing to do. Very rarely if ever would you have to actually shoot a person, that would be considered use of excessive force by the police, though many have done it and gotten away with it. A private citizen is not expected to respond to an assault the same as a police officer. Even so, a police officer in the state of AZ is allowed to use lethal force against someone trying to run them down with a vehicle, and the same applies to private citizens. The thing is, I don't really want to shoot anyone, and would do so only if convinced there was no other way. Thankfully, we have some pretty liberal laws on self defense here in AZ. Just like Texas, we are still part of the old west, and many laws are still on the books from that time, unlike many eastern states. Jerry.

**flitecontrol** · 03-24-2010, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JunkyardDog

There are plenty of idiot drivers out there who are busy doing something other than driving, and not paying attention to what they are doing. But, I have been purposely harassed by a few people, who will run up real close behind you, then back off, then do it again. This is clearly an intentional threat on their part, using their vehicle as a weapon. Question: at precisely what distance from you does their vehicle stop being just a mode of transportation and become a weapon? You are going to have to explain what you felt the justification was clearly and convincingly to the court if you shoot the guy or his vehicle.Such a person is obviously mentally unbalanced, which makes them even more unpredictable and dangerous. Like I said, on a faster bike, you can just leave them in the dust, but not on a Rebel. At that point I would have to make a decision. But like the old saying goes, I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Have you ever considered that to the cager this may be a practical joke they are playing with you? That's probably the position the DA will take at your trial.

In todays sick and twisted society, it's not just on a bike you need to be armed, it's pretty much everywhere. That is why I went through police firearms training, which includes a large section on what the laws are, and got my concealed weapons permit. I too had the training and carried a badge to boot. I think you may have been dozing when and if they covered this in class.

If you legitimately believe someone is trying to kill you, or about to kill you, you are not likely to be convicted of anything for defending yourself. Yes, and No. It isn't that simple, and they should have explained it in class. The test is: what would a reasonable person do in that situation? If you are in your home and someone starts tearing down your door with an axe and states that when they gain entry they intend to dismember you and everyone else inside, are you justified in using deadly force? Most reasonable people would agree that you are. The person has violated your curtilage, is attempting to gain unauthorized entry, and has announced deadly intent. If the jury decides that you had the option to get out of the driver's way but instead chose to shoot him, you are going to prison. You would rarely if ever actually need to fire a gun, simply looking at someone standing with legs apart, holding a gun with both hands, pointed directly at them, would be enough to scare them off. OK, let me get this straight. He's tailgating you so closely that you feel your life is in danger. You stop the bike, get off, draw your gun, assume the modified Weaver position (the stance you described above), point your gun at him and he hasn't run over you yet, correct? Where is he by the time you get your gun drawn? Has he passed you, pulled up behind you and started shouting obsenities, or gotten out of the vehicle with an axe handle in his hand and he's swinging it as he runs toward you? Unless it's the latter, you have no business drawing your weapon, and you will lose your permit to carry and may well wind up in jail. Then YOU call the police, and report what happened. A vehicle is most certainly considered every bit as much a deadly weapon as a gun is here in AZ, and using either one to threaten someone with is considered a felony. Agreed. The problem is whether or not your actions are "reasonable" as interpreted by the court you will be tried in. It matters not whether or not YOU feel justified in your actions. You have to convince the jury your actions are those of a reasonable person.I realize different states have different laws, but AZ laws tend to favor self defense. And the fact that I have both a concealed weapons permit, an ID card from the City of Chandler police department, and a spotless record would definitely work out in my favor. It may work in your favor, but believe me, if you make an unreasonable response, it won't mean squat. You will be found guilty.

I am not some nutcase looking to shoot somebody, I didn't say you were. I'm saying you don't seem to have a good grasp of what constitutes a justification for shooting someone. in fact I have peace signs on both my vehicles. And I've seen drug users with bumper stickers that said "Say no to drugs". But what's that got to do with the discussion?But I also would not hesitate for an instant to shoot someone who was trying to harm me or a member of my family. I sleep with a loaded 9mm inches away from my bed, one in the chamber, and the safety off. Jerry.

I've got no problem with that. But the bottom line is there is a world of difference between shooting an intruder in your home and a guy that's bugging you out on the road.

JunkyardDog · 03-24-2010, 03:45 PM

Ok, I will quit posting here. No need to let things get out of hand. Apparently we are talking about two different things, and there are a lot of misunderstandings here. But, for the record, I am not a violent person, and most certainly hope I never have to shoot anyone. As for terminology, I am quite familiar with it, and did not use the term "modified weaver position" because I figured nobody would know what it meant. Obviously this cannot be used from a bike, or any other vehicle. This is used as a defensive stance used when someone is coming at you with intent to harm you. As I said, hopefully that alone would be enough to stop them.

About tailgating. In AZ, tailgating (following way closer that what would be considered safe) out on an open road comes under the aggressive driving law, and has severe penalties, including loss of license. This law covers many things, including pretty much any kind of threatening behavior while operating a motor vehicle, which includes a motorcycle. This law was passed to deal with the extremely high number of "road rage" incidents we have had here, which only became significant a few years ago. There are a lot of reasons why these incidents happen, but I am not an expert on it, and won't get into it here. But quite a few people here have been killed in these incidents. Jerry.

**Dutch** · 05-14-2010, 07:12 AM

Even though this thread has become somewhat off topic, I find it very interesting how 'you Americans' look upon the right to own and use a gun. To me (and probably about 90% of the people over here) it's really hard to try and imagine what it's like to actually have a gun around the house (or concealed on you, or in your car). The only people over here owning a gun are police, army and criminals. Hence, the difficulty for me to place myself in 'your' shoes.

**flitecontrol** · 05-14-2010, 10:48 AM

This is what the second amendment to our Constitution says: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." So the right to have a gun is guaranteed by our constitution. Unfortunately, while convicted felons are prohibited by law from posessing firearms, they often do, and are a major source of criminal activity, often involving the use of guns.

I believe only Switzerland has a higher percentage of gun owners than the U.S. And they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

**Dutch** · 05-14-2010, 06:43 PM

Not argueing there of course. In 1.5 yrs time my house was broken into twice, so you can imagine my personal stance on owning a gun

. But still: I just cannot imagine owning one legally. We haven't got your second amendment, nor your constitution. But, for what it's worth: we can smoke pot legally. Allthough I gave that up when my son was born, I did enjoy that liberty quite often back in the days, haha!

Ok, BOT: I haven't had any bad encounters with car drivers when I'm riding my bike. Used to own a Yamaha YZF-R6, so taking off high speed was easy then.

**flitecontrol** · 05-15-2010, 01:43 AM

Hopefully, European drivers are more aware of motorcycle riders than drivers in the U.S. On average, I have a riding encounter that could have ended badly about 3-4 times a year.

Had some guys break into my house (the geniuses kicked in the front door) and wake me up. They thought the house was empty. My shotgun was in the bedroom closet. Fortunately for them, I didn't realize what was going on until I saw them in the living room. The overwhelming urge to immediately do them serious bodily injury with my hands clouded my judgement and I never even thought about going to the closet and getting my gun. We exchanged some words, they left as fast as their legs could carry them, and the police caught them a few days later with my help.

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