JunkyardDog

I assume everybody has heard of the San Diego guy who claims his Toyota Prius accelerated out of control a few days ago. I admit his story sounds a little fishy, but usually when someone pulls a hoax, there is a reason. If this if a hoax, it appears to be a very expensive one for that Toyota driver.

But on to my point. Neither Toyota nor the government can prove or disprove his story, due to the complicated electronics involved. When things get that bad, it is obvious that electronics on cars have gotten out of hand, and are now causing serious safety issues. A factory technician could thoroughly check out a car, and not be able to tell the owner whether it is safe to drive or not. Enough is enough. Jerry.

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Fridgitator

I have no way of knowing if this guy is on the level. I suspect that as much is at stake here, we'll be hearing about it for some time. The thing that bothers me the most about the whole deal is that Toyota is trying to attribute the anomalies to 'sticking' accelerators, but the incidents that have been in the news locally involve cars running at full throttle when there is no reason to believe that the driver ever jammed the pedal to the floor to begin with. I'm wondering if they based the computer management software on Windoze ME.

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cagie

Go back and look at the 10 year history, most of the run-away problems were caused by cruise control mechanisms and electronics combined. I have always wondered about these and can't help but think that there is RFI interference (Cell, HF, MW) on an unsheilded circuit, sort of an EMP jambing the circuit open. But I am not an electronics expert, just a closet conspiracy theorist. LOL

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Comments contained in my posts are not intended to cause physical or psychological stress and are mearly my two cents worth, and in this economy, that's cheap!
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flitecontrol

Just as I suspected!

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JunkyardDog

Electronic cruise controls are dangerous, just like anything else controlled by electronics that operates safety related hardware. On vehicles, this not only includes cruise controls, but electronic throttle and brake controls of any kind. And by electronics, I mean digital electronics, controlled by software, exactly what is in the computer I'm typing on. Windows is a good example of the problems inherent in this kind of system. Not a day goes by that I don't have some kind of problem with Windows, all versions. Sometimes small glitches, sometimes major issues. Software is flat out unreliable, as is the fragile hardware it controls. And no, those electronics are not shielded in any way. Even CB radios interfere with them. I installed a CB in a '93 Chevy pickup,(many years ago) and it caused problems with the electronic engine management system, and that system was far less complex than what new vehicles have.


Electronic engine management systems have been uses in cars since 1981, and they continue to get more and more complicated. The electronic systems fail on a regular basis, and cost a fortune to fix, but up until now, these failures have not attracted widespread attention, because they never killed anybody. People complained about the high cost of car repairs, and the fact that they could no longer work on them themselves, but that was about it.

The recent problems are just the tip of the iceberg. They are caused by 2 things. Electronics have now gone beyond engine control, and are now controlling important safety related items like throttle, brakes, and steering. Also, the electronics are flimsy, cheaply made junk, just like what you would find in handheld cell phones and MP3 players. They have always been poor quality, and are getting worse, as manufacturers try to cut costs by having these parts made in third world countries. Ford, GM, and Chrysler have most of their electronics made in Mexico, but I see a switch to China soon. Also, these parts are, by design, barely adequate to do what they are supposed to do. Couple that with the poor quality, and you have a disaster on your hands, like Toyota, and Toyota drivers.

And remember, this is Toyota, a company known for quality, not Kia or Daewoo, or some Chinese company. Toyota said that multiple systems would have to fail in order to cause what this guy claimed happened. What they did not say is just how common this actually is. All these systems are tied together, and use a lot of the same components, especially sensors.


Again, there is no conspiracy here, Just automakers trying to cut corners and save money, buy using cheap technology, rather than expensive mechanical parts. Electronics are cheaper to buy, and cars with electronics and front wheel drive are much cheaper to build, so the profit margin goes up. No mystery there. The only mystery is in the electronics themselves, and as both the government and Toyota have said, it will probably never be solved.


How would you like your Windows driven PC controlling your cars brakes and throttle? Think about it. Jerry.

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Henryinva

Jerry, dude, ya wrote a book, the answer is real easy.....Low bid...and I'll explain..

There is a fire truck manufacturer that has an all wheel steer truck. The rear axle position was positioned by a 10 buck, POS pulse counter. They had digital glass scales, accurate to a gnats rear available, but they cost a grand more to outfit the truck with them. (I'm guessing, but I'm close to the number).

So, heres the deal. 350,000.00 dollar truck, rear end controlled by a 25 buck pulse encoder. Truck in my area went nutso going down the road. Factory sent another 25 buck POS encoder. I put it on, told the factory what a piece of chit it was, and it took a dump 2 days later, almost taking out cars and a bridge. Told the factory, I'm not touching it. They sent a rep to my facility and he went thru 4 POS before he found a good one. He stuck it on. I told him that their were glass encoder available that were acurate within tenths of degrees. His response, low bid finalized the design. Suprised no one has been killed yet, but I'm out of the loop for 5 years now. I understand that they are using glass scales now. Imagine that.

Boiled down to low bid, until it blew up in their faces...

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he'll just kill you!"

Rest easy Vic...5-15-58/10-28-2010

flitecontrol

Sometimes lowest bid isn't a bargain!

__________________
I'm keepin' all the left over parts. I'm gonna use 'em to build another bike!

2001 Rebel 250, 1989 Vulcan 750
Putting your bike info in your signature helps others help you!

Henryinva

No dah....

Just trying to make sense to Jerry's rant. Which is a true thing..

__________________
"Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight,
he'll just kill you!"

Rest easy Vic...5-15-58/10-28-2010

Fridgitator

As some of you may have guessed, I work in refrigeration/ Air conditioning. When I started in the trade, A/C systems were controlled mostly by mercury bulb thermostats. Very simple. A bulb on a bimetal coil contains a glob of mercury. When the coil gets warm, it tips the bulb, and the glob of molten metal closes a connection. Then people got clever and came up with solid state circuitry to not only replace the most reliable temperature actuated switch ever devised, but now virtually every machine I work on is run by circuit boards. When something goes wrong, I figure out which of the various boards is at fault, and replace it. Entire buildings' a/c systems are controlled by computers that reboot and shut all the dampers down when there is a power surge. Do you think the remote access works when this happens? Of course not. I laughed when garage door openers got popular when I was a kid, and they opened and closed when planes flew overhead or cop cars drove by due to the cheesy radio receivers that operated them. I spend an inordinate amount of time on computers, and I enjoy many of the benefits that digital technology has brought us. Still, I don't care for machines that can kill people being at the mercy of persnickety technology.

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Leaf

Yep.....

I program computers and maintain servers for a living, but I keep a copy of all my financial records and other important stuff on paper.... I just can't trust the things enough for permanent long-term data storage...

Even digital backups... Remember when CD burners first came out, they claimed that CDRs would be good forever? Now they have found that they degrade over the years. :P

It's aggrivating. Back in the 80s, you bought a computer and it came with schematics, all the ICs in sockets, etc. The day of the hobbyist/self-repair at the sub-unit level is over though, with everything being surface-mounted disposable by-the-unit crap now. Though there are some technical reasons for packing everything in there on high-speed systems, to prevent bus ringing and parts of the circuit starting to act like antennas, I think the bottom line is that they just want to keep feeding us cheap, disposable crap, in order to maintain the endless upgrade cycle so that they can keep lining their pockets.

Unless you are running high-end 3d software or heavy mathematics, is that spanky new 64-bit 4-core box sitting under your desk really doing anything that you didn't do at about the same speed on your 386, 15 years ago, just without as much fluff and glitter?

Not really. You probably only upgraded because the software that ran on your old one became unsupported, right? Software just becomes more bloated, so as to use up the existing hardware.

We have a program going where we collect "obsolete" computer hardware, install a stripped down Linux on it, and send it to 3rd world countries. They gobble that stuff up and it works just fine...

Sorry for the rant. I tend to get fed up with this whole consumerism thing that we seem to have going on as a people. It will eventually be our undoing, as the poorer nations, lacking our collective sense of entitlement, catch up and surpass us...

Lol.

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