450 Rebel Drag Pipe ?

[GearJammer]

Had cut the stock mufflers off at the muffler/header pipe weld & installed the 12" EMGO Shorties. Have been content with 'em, the only downside being that in heavy leans, the EMGO's can scrape a bit. Thinking about removing the EMGO's & just running the straight drags without slip-ons. Could easily bracket the ends of the headers to the bottom frame rails.

Here's the thing tho'.......when I first cut 'em, installed the EMGO's before taking it on the road & can't remember what it sounded like after the cut & before installing the EMGO's.

It's no biggie as it'll only take me about 10 mins. to remove 'em to give 'em a listen, but wondering if anyone knows right off if they'll be considerably louder & deeper w/o the slip-ons ? Any significant power loss or possible need to re-jet ? (still have the stock airbox in place & didn't have to re-jet w/the EMGO'S)

Also thinking about re-doing the rear fender again. Had done "Are's" cats-eye tail-light mod, but thinking about bobbing the rear fender just behind the old stock tail-light mounting holes on the rear fender, then installing a bracket in the stock mounting holes to put the cat's-eye on top of the rear fender & placing the license plate beneath that......just a different location for pretty much the same arrangement.

[Snorebaby]

Hey GJ,

I will watch this post as I am thinking of doing straight pipes from my 450. Wonder what they would sound like also! And if there is any re-jetting needed. Would be great if someone could make a sound file of the straights so we could actually "hear" the sound.

I think the rear fender idea would look great, just wondering about the license plate...wouldn't it have to angle upwards? Or would you consider the side mount option?....if you decide to do it please post pics!!

[GearJammer]

Hey Brother......

Almost positive that the pipes can be altered to straight pipes without having to re-jet unless we lost the stock airbox as well. Opening up the pipes AND losing the airbox would definitely require a re-jet. Somewhere in my misc. notes at my place, I've got some re-jetting #'s for the 450/straight pipes/airbox removed....which I've been saving in case I decide to go all-out & lose the airbox at some point in future.

The pipes currently with the EMGO's might be best described as sounding like a Cesna, LMAO! Not bad, really, but I'd prefer a more ba**sier sound :roll: so will see what it sounds like when I get around to removing the EMGO's. If this change to short drags works out, there'd be no more slip-on scraping in those heavy leans, plus I could lose the passenger pegs & brackets for a cleaner look.

Good point on the license plate when re-locating the tail-light to topside. Now, with "Are's" mod & the tail-light tucked under the end of the rear fender, I had to carefully bend the license plate bracket slightly upwards to clear the rear tire. Gave it a look-see this afternoon after getting back from a ride & it looks like a "possibility" that after bobbing the rear fender & re-locating the tail-light, there might still be adequate room to bend the license plate slightly upwards again to retain the required visibility of the plate. Had thought about a side-mount, but the reason I'm hoping to be able to avoid that is that I like to run the saddlebags, which limits side-mount options as well as not wanting any excess parts in the way when having to do chain adjustments, tire changes, etc.

Edit:......oops, almost forgot, LOL! Finally have the OL "trained" to help me with digital camera stuff, so pics have become a more likely option..........FINALLY! ROTFLMAO!

[HotShott]

GJ

If and when you get the Shorties off, please try and post some sound files. I'm thinking about doing the same thing, and I'd like to know what I'm getting myself into.

[GearJammer]

Sound file ? YIKES! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!! Totally teasin' with ya, HotShott....Please keep in mind that it's taken me several years to get to being able to take pics, so a sound file might be a tall order for this scooter tramp :wink: .....but IF I can, I will, Brother.......

Am able to borrow the use of 2 digital cams & still having problems with those (close-up shots are blurry), but should definitely be able to get some pics of the Reb up in the near future. I'll have to ask these digicam lenders about sound files 'cause I don't have a clue about that kinda stuff.

First up is changing the oil, then wanna check the plug reads before the slip-on removal so's I can gauge the plug reads afterwards. Just hoping that they sound better 'cause the look would also appeal to me more. Right now, the slip-ons end in line with the rear of the battery cover, with no slip-ons, the header pipes should end in line with the front of the battery cover.

Snorey.......looked at the license plate thing again & with the lowered rear fender w/250 Rebel shocks, the plate is real close to the rear tire. If I make the mentioned cut of the rear fender, it looks like it'll actually raise the license plate a bit more away from the tire than it is now, so hopeful that this'll work out. Will probably do the pipes first & then back-burner the fender cut until a bit later.

[HotShott]

A lot of the newer digi-cams have the ability to take short movies, usually 1-3 minutes, depending on the amount of memory the camera has. That'd be enough to give us a taste. Then I guess you could always put 'em up on YouTube.

My pipes are actually already cut off, but my scoot's in too many pieces to run :lol: I like the look of straight pipes with some 12" turn-out tips, but I've also considered getting some cocktail shaker mufflers with removable baffles put on.

Keep us updated. I'm liking the... adventurousness of some of the guys on this site lately. People trying cool stuff to make their bikes their own. Not that I don't appreciate the wealth of knowledge from the guys on the other Rebel site, but I think a stock Rebel is kind of boring. I know, it's by and large a beginners bike (heck, I'm a beginner), but it's nice to know there're like minded brothers out there! Sorry for the tangent :wink:

[GearJammer]

Yep......I asked the OL about sound files & she mentioned that some digicams have that option. Now I've got to find out if either of these 2 d/c's can make a sound file. Her daughter will no doubt know more about this technology than we do, so will be asking her as well. I don't even own a cell phone, but maybe their cells would work, too ? I dunno.....

Your tangent sounds fine to me, LMAO! We all have our own bike preferences.......2 wheels & a motor is all good to me, stock, modified or chopped (My personal rides of choice are choppers) Guess another way to look at it is that many owners of stock bikes still add their own personalizations, be it saddlebags, extra lights, windshields, any number of options........where they might reach their own personal limit as far as cosmetic changes, some of us may simply push the envelope a bit further.....but it's all still good :wink:

[GearJammer]

Was thinking about this last night & Snorey's 450 Rebel mods came to mind. A lot of folks choose the "bolt-on" route & that's cool, but Snorey puts a LOT of thought & effort into his Reb. At first glance, some might mistake it for factory stock w/various cosmetic "bolt-ons", but it's anything but.......he's got the talent to do some serious one-off modifications to achieve just the right results for what he has in mind.

Working within that fine balance of keeping a stock look while at the same time incorporating some relatively intricate mods is pretty unique & very cool :wink:

Still trying to "corrupt his morals"....hehehe....& talk him into building a BTTW chopper...........it'd be a trip to watch the creative ideas without restraint being applied on a chopper canvas :wink:

[HotShott]

I hear ya' man. I'm not tryin' to bag on anyone. I just like seein' guys try something new, or findin' unique ways to get what they're after. Especially on a budget and in their own garage. I don't care if it's a chopper, bobber, rat, custom, whatever. Just build it and ride it. I guess maybe here it's the fact that you seem to get more straight answers and ideas and less lectures and condecension.

End of the thread hijack. I wanna hear those pipes. :D

I'd like to see some shots of Snorebaby's bike. I'll have to do a search.

[GearJammer]

It's casual........knew you weren't baggin' on anyone, quite the contrary & I believe we're on the same page as far as personal choices for each of us. Chopper Rick is there as well, preferring the homegrown, knuckle 'n grit builds, but respecting that it's a very small percentage of motorcyclists that choose to go that way. Being supportive of one another rather than trying to lay one's own trip on the prospective builder is where it's at, especially if the outside perspective doesn't match the builder's personal vision (and I believe we're on the same page there as well) :wink:

Will keep inquiring about the sound file on this end, but please be patient. The pics will no doubt get done first........

Snorey's posted pics in various places, might even have a Photo Album on site ? (Not sure......and that's another thing I need to work on myself......Photo Album)

Ride Safe, Brother & keep after your vision! :wink:

[Snorebaby]

Thanks for the kind words GJ :oops: Yes you are working hard to "corrupt" me to build the BTTW chopper!! ROTFLMAO!! It WILL happen one day! Most of my mods have pics on here scattered throughout and in my album.

HottShott -- I bought my Rebel new in 1987 (it's a '86 showroom leftover). I fell in love with the looks (lines) of the bike then and I think they are still beautiful. I try to do some mods to enhance the lines and not detract from the original look. For THIS bike, it is my preference. I have ideas for other bikes and am looking to chop one if I can find a rolling frame that has lines that will agree with my eye! I am not finished with the Rebel yet as I still want straight pipes (but you wouldn't know it by just looking at it), saddlebags (custom of course...working on that now), a stock (or nearly stock) backrest, and going to do a custom paint on the tins. Then she will be nearly complete, have not decided on LED's yet.

I have another "project" in the stable as I have recently bought an '85 GL1200 GoldWing LTD. Not much to do as it is pretty full of chrome and lights, just gonna add some of my own touches 8) . The wife wants to ride again so the GW is for "us" to enjoy. The back seat of the Reb is not "wide" enough (her words, I swear!!!).

So with all that being said, I enjoy the customization of everyone's bike, however small or large. I may not particularly (whew that's a mouthful) like a mod, but respect the owner's taste and eye for his/her asthetics of HIS/HER bike! That's why they call it "customization". There is one that I can use for example -- The crossover staggered aftermarket pipes for the Rebs. Don't like it -- nothing can change my mind on that -- but if you like it that is alright with me! I just think it takes away from the lines of the bike.

Sorry for the long winded reply! I love the ideas that flow on this site and it is a great place for anyone to come and feel like family. If I have done a mod that you like and would like to incorporate it into yours...feel free to ask and I will try to detail it for you. All my ideas are up for grabs!

[Chopper Rick]

I've be considing also going with straight drags on my 450, looking forward Gj to seeing some pics when you've gotten yours on. Will you be using universal drag pipes or are they coming off of another bike?

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

Sorry for the confusion, Brother, but I'll be using the cut stock header pipes as open drags. Have to correct myself here....above I'd mentioned that the EMGO'S end under the rear side of the battery cover....they actually end in line with the top shock mount. But when the EMGO's are removed, the ends of the already cut headers should be in line beneath the front of the battery cover. What's cool is that the header pipes are right there by the bottom frame rails, so clamping them to the rails on each side should be pretty straightforward.

[GearJammer]

Yo Chopper Rick..........With your possible plans to run drags, I just remembered something here. Did you recently install the pod filters & lose the stock airbox ? If so & if you're going to go with lost airbox AND straight pipes, that re-jet would be in order.

I'll have to remember to look up those re-jetting #'s I wrote down some time ago & post 'em here for reference in case others need 'em to use as ballpark figures......

[Chopper Rick]

Yo Chopper Rick..........With your possible plans to run drags, I just remembered something here. Did you recently install the pod filters & lose the stock airbox ? If so & if you're going to go with lost airbox AND straight pipes, that re-jet would be in order.

I'll have to remember to look up those re-jetting #'s I wrote down some time ago & post 'em here for reference in case others need 'em to use as ballpark figures......

Yes. i did install pod filters & removed the airbox rode it around for awhile & found it alittle rough & realized a re-jetting was in order. I'll be looking for your posting on the re-jetting numbers.

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

All-righty then :wink: .........Dug out the re-jetting info.

This was for an '86 450 Reb, but should apply to the '87 450's as well. He had "cored" the stock Rebel pipes, similar to what Snorey had been talking about, leaving the pipes looking stock but "open" (baffles removed). Also removed the stock airbox & installed 52mm pod filters.

Stock slow/pilot jets: #35......He bumped those up to #40's

Stock main jets: #112......He bumped those up to #133's

Better sound, more power..... 8)

[sox]

Thanks for the rejetting info...8)

that's something I didn't have. I

I've sent my drag pipes off to be redone in stainless...when I get them back I'll stick little baffles in them and get the rejetting done....

With no baffles (I had 'em like that for about 18 months...lol) you couldn't really hear anything other than the bike for about 30 feet....
Definitely stopped a few pedestrians stepping off the pavement in front of me!!
With the small baffles in it's much more controlled but still with plenty of "ooomph" in the sound... :D And I get the much needed pint of backpressure to help the engine...the straight thru's only really came into their own when it was full throttle!

sox

[GearJammer]

Great to see ya again, Sox & thanx for the input :wink:

The EMGO's don't have any baffle plates, they're straight-thru's, but there is a perforated insert in the inner diameter of 'em. Bike runs fine with 'em & thinking that there might be a slight regain of backpressure by virtue of the shape of the EMGO's with the tapered ends. Will see if there's any significant power loss once I remove 'em & actually test-ride the bike that way.

Had rapped with a local indie shop owner about re-jetting one time & he mentioned that re-jetting is somewhat of a "black art" & oftentimes took some trial 'n error to find the right #'s.

Am wondering if your Reb with staight-thru's & a re-jet would perform better than straight-thru's without a re-jet........Going on the principle of drag bikes that run straight drags, yet have no doubt re-jetted to compensate for zero backpressure......This'll be an experiment for me, just wanna see if I can get a ba**sier sound without the EMGO's & hoping that it doesn't adversely effect the power band. We'll see.........If need be, would probably remove the airbox as well, do the needed re-jet & boogie on, LOL!

[sox]

Check these baffles out:

http://www.lickscycles.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=746


All exhaust pipes have their own unique design issues, especially in the areas of sonic and thermal pulses. The ultimate goal is to create back pressure, stop reversion, and create a sound that is loud but not obnoxious. A deep throaty rumble is the most sought after sound. While standard baffles attempt to deal with these issues they generally return less than desirable results, particularly in the area of sound. Removing or cutting the baffles in length may seem to give more sound, it is usually not a deep crisp sound but a blatty, higher brassy sound. Plus when baffles are removed or cut down the midrange horsepower and torque are diminished. Horsepower can drop by 8+ and torque by 10+ ft lbs. This can also create a throttle hesitation. Trying to compensate by tuning the carburetor or adding more horsepower will not remedy these issues. The goal is to achieve a great sound, increase midrange power, and eliminate throttle hesitation. Our products address all these areas in a "Do It Yourself, Bolt In Device" that works throughout the entire midpower range and gives you a "you Can Feel It In the Seat Of Your Pants" performance kick. All this and a Killer Sound Too! Thunder Monsters will give you up to 7-8 midrange horsepower over a straight pipe with no baffle depending on your bike and the way you have it set up. Thunder Monsters will give you up to 12 midrange horsepower over a straight pipe with no baffle depending on your bike and the way you have it set up.

sox

[Chopper Rick]

Nice. Do you know if those Thunder Monsters will fit onto a Rebel 450 after cutting some of the stock exhaust?

Chopper Rick

[sox]

Not sure...

but,

These fit 1 5/8" INSIDE DIAMETER PIPES, 1 7/8" INSIDE DIAMETER PIPES, 2" INSIDE DIAMETER PIPES, AND 2 1/8" INSIDE DIAMETER PIPES.

NOTE-Please measure the inside diameter of your pipe and the outside diameter of the baffle you are using if you have one, before calling. If you do not have a baffle measure the outside and the inside diameter of your pipe at the exit end with any tip or end cap removed.

You'd have to measure the pipe. :D

sox

[Chopper Rick]

A member on here about a month ago had given me the measurement but i can't remember what it was. Oh well, maybe someone on here will know & get back with me. Thanks Sox.

Chopper Rick

[sox]

A member on here about a month ago had given me the measurement but i can't remember what it was. Oh well, maybe someone on here will know & get back with me.

You have still to learn the ways of the Rebel young one....

When all else fails...one must consult ye who is known as the Rebel Guru...M'sieur Jack (he of Jack's Rebel Motorcycle Warehouse in the Galaxy of Florida)


sox

:D :D

[Chopper Rick]

A member on here about a month ago had given me the measurement but i can't remember what it was. Oh well, maybe someone on here will know & get back with me.

You have still to the ways of the Rebel young one....

When all else fails...one must consult ye who is known as the Rebel Guru...M'sieur Jack (he of Jack's Rebel Motorcycle Warehouse in the County of Florida)


sox

:D :D

I had forgotten about Jack...It's been awhile since i've contacted him. Thanks for the reminder.

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

Thanx very much for that link, Sox.....will definitely be taking a closer look again when time allows (hectic here locally.....in a not "good" way......not whining tho'......"Bikers Overcome Adversity", LOL!)

Chopper Rick, it might require different header pipes to allow insertion of the Thunder Monster baffles due to the double ? triple ? walled stock headers ? I'll look again as they're exposed now with the EMGO's off of there.......But these Thunder Monster baffles look interesting, especially if they allow a regain of any power loss after cutting the stock pipes, plus they claim an additional boost, which is very cool! :wink:

[Chopper Rick]

Thanx very much for that link, Sox.....will definitely be taking a closer look again when time allows (hectic here locally.....in a not "good" way......not whining tho'......"Bikers Overcome Adversity", LOL!)

Chopper Rick, it might require different header pipes to allow insertion of the Thunder Monster baffles due to the double ? triple ? walled stock headers ? I'll look again as they're exposed now with the EMGO's off of there.......But these Thunder Monster baffles look interesting, especially if they allow a regain of any power loss after cutting the stock pipes, plus they claim an additional boost, which is very cool! :wink:

Agree, they do look interesting & if they do allow more power it might be worth looking futher into. Would you happen to know off hand what the outside & inside dia of the stock pipes are on your 450?

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

Found these internal baffles at JC Whitney, not sure how they compare to the Thunder Monsters lengthwise or installation-wise. Without having measured the stock headers where they've been cut, I'll guess that the 450 Rebel pipes are 1 5/8" O.D. and maybe 1 1/2" I.D. ? Will try to remember to check that out today if I can. There's also at least one, if not two, inner walls inside the stock header & we'd have to see if those are only tack-welded in place & accessible enough to knock out the tack-welds in order to get those inner walled sleeves out to make room for the aftermarket inserts......Will also try to eyeball the headers to see if I can find the tack-weld points and hope that the inner walls don't go all the way to the exhaust ports.

http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Browse/tf-Browse/s-10101/N-111+10211+600014672/c-10111

[Chopper Rick]

Great! I look forward to hearing back of you. Thanks GJ.

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

O.K..........measured 'em.......1 5/8" O.D., 1 1/2" I.D.

I had cut the stock mufflers off at the muffler/header pipe weld. There's another inner sleeve that appears to be tack-welded above & below on the header pipe & looks like that sleeve only goes just forward of the weld in front of the cross-over tube. My guess is that if one could get a narrow metal chisel between the inner "wall" & the header pipe itself, the tack welds could probably be smacked out & the inner sleeve should slide out. One interesting thing tho'...the inner sleeve is somewhat "sliced" in the area on each side of the cross-over tube (this all being inside the pipes of course) If the inner sleeve was removed & an internal baffle inserted, the internal baffle would block the cross-over tube passages on each side & I have no clue as to how this might effect performance. You can see the tack welds as small "dots" on the outside surface of the header pipe & even with a flashlight, I honestly couldn't tell if the inner sleeve is just tack-welded in a few spots or if it's possibly being held in place by more of the weld going around the entire header pipe forward of the cross-over tube.

Took the Reb on a good ride today & I may or may not have lost some midrange power by removing the EMGO's, but there's definitely no throttle hesitation. These pipes are LOUD now, so if I were to roll on the throttle as before to boogie thru the gears, the pipes are blastin' pretty well, so I probably went a bit easier than before the EMGO removal. Next time I'm on a clear stretch of road with no one else around, I'll run her thru the gears more aggressively to see if the acceleration is still the same as before or not.......hard to tell from just these 2 initial test runs.....All things considered, will be leaving everything as is & will check the plug reads after a week of riding.

[Chopper Rick]

Thanks GJ...Appreciate all the the infor you provided in the post.

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

Up-date...........Finally got a chance to check out the performance with the now short, straight drags. There's definitely been a decrease in the mid-range power, as you mentioned previously, Sox......

My knowledge of carbueration is basic at best, but still thinking that the mid-range loss can be regained by a re-jet. In reading the info that the Thunder Monster folks offer, it says "Plus when baffles are removed or cut down the midrange horsepower and torque are diminished."......agreed.......Then it says "Trying to compensate by TUNING THE CARBURETOR or adding more horsepower will not remedy these issues"........If I'm reading this correctly, the key words of "tuning the carburetor" may be a bit misleading ? I dunno.....I can see where trying the tune the carb, using the existing jets, may offer no remedy. But what if one RE-JETS & then dials in the carb ? See what I'm getting at ?

Will be checking the plug reads after 7 good rides on the Reb as is.....weather isn't that great here, still have 5 more rides before checkin' those. If it's not running too lean, will leave it like it is & then when the weather warms up a bit, will lose the stock airbox & just go ahead & re-jet for the whole shebang to see what happens.......