Clutch Replacement 86 Rebel 450

[Seymour66]

I just purchased a rare find in awesome condition. It has about 20K miles on it. It starts and runs great. I can drive it, but it's kind of rough taking off in first and then feels like the clutch may be slipping a bit while riding. Then while riding, it spits and sputters a bit while cruising.....any suggestions.......maybe a carb clean or something.

I do all my own mechanic work on my cars.....with that, can someone tell me how difficult it will be to replace the clutch? Does it require special tools/parts? I'm a new Rebel owner, so I don't have the books yet.

I bought it because I always wanted one. I have a 2005 Royal Star Tour Deluxe that is awesome to ride, but I wanted a Rebel to get better gas mileage and also to take me back to my childhood days, but wanted something larger than the 250.

One more thing.....when I downshift I have to help the shifter come back to continue downshifting to lower gears.....I assume it's just a spring or something???

Anyway, I look forward to your replies.

Thanks!

Seymour66

[Snorebaby]

Welcome Seymour66!!!

I also have an 86 450. I bought mine new but had it in storage for about 15yrs. This past winter decided to get her running again.

Now to help with your questions :) .

It sounds like your clutch may be beginning to wear out. I don't know if your bike ever had the clutch discs replaced, but it may be time....I have both the Clymers and Honda Factory manuals for the 86. I have never done it either as mine only has 6000 miles on her. So I don't know if it requires special tools or not....others on here may know that better than me.

The carbs probably need cleaning and I suggest that you install an inline filter in the line from the petcock to the carb. Your tank probably has rust and sediment in it just from age and you are getting trash in the carbs. A paper element filter would probably be best and catch most of the minute particles. I usually get mine at an auto parts store for about $2. Just so happens that I just changed mine today after some well needed riding!!! I think that you might want to check the sync of the carbs also if that doesn't take care of it.

The shifter problem is more than likely a spring....I just started having that problem and there are 3 springs in the gear shifter area. Luckily it doesn't look like it is too difficult to do either. And the springs are pretty cheap, $2-$3 each according to www.crotchrocket.com That is a real good site to see the schematics and parts of the Rebel. They are resonable on their prices even though you might be able to find some things on ebay a little cheaper.

You can get the Clymers manual on ebay at a decent price, around $25 -$30 shipped. You will have to search ebay for the Honda Factory Manual or you can go to www.helminc.com and order it from them. Both are great to have even though the Clymers does have some errors. We have noted some of them on here in another post.

Hope that helps you!!!

[Seymour66]

Thanks for the info.

I called a local bike repair shop and they indicated that it would cost more to have the clutch replaced than what the bike is worth.......unknowing to them I just purchased the bike and desire to get it road worth so I can "go back a few years". Not only that, I look forward to passing it down to my older son in a few years, but I want it to be mechanically sound for when he gets it. That is why I inquired on how difficult it was to actually replace the clutch myself. I found a couple of clutch kits online for about $54 or so, but the kit only had 7 clutch plates. After looking at the schematic and reading some of the other forum posts, it might be of benefit to replace the friction plates as well. I'll still need to find them.

The guy I purchased the bike from had the tank treated with something to prevent rust. After I got it home and put gas in it the bike smoked a lot. I was almost wondering what I got myself into, but after the smoke cleared, it runs like a top. You mentioned something about having the carb sychronized......is this something that I can perform at home.....or pay dearly at the local Honda shop? I definately plan on getting the Honda Maint. Manual to help, but until then I figure there are many folks here that might have experienced similar issues. I will definately put an inline filter on the gas line just in case.

I have another question......again with no manual I have no idea......on the bottom side of the engine there are two bolts. I assume one is the oil drain plug......what is the other one? I assume the larger one is the oil drain plug, but I'm not sure what the smaller one is for/to. When checking the oil, do I stand the bike up level (like I do for my other bike), or do I leave it on the kickstand while checking? How many quarts of oil does it take?


Thanks for the quick response. Just from looking at the forum posts, this will prove to be an excellent source of information!

Seymour66

[Snorebaby]

No thanks needed....just glad to help!!!

I don't know if your local repair shop was the Honda "Stealership" or not. I stay away from them as much as possible....call around to the independent repair shops in your area (if you have them) to find out prices on repairing the clutch. I usually find a good indie shop and stick with them as they are usually better than the "Stealership" in quality and price and respect your love for the older bikes. Actually the plates and discs are in a "bucket" and I have looked through the manual and it don't look too hard without special tools.

Don't know about the smoking since it has cleared up....has it smoked on first crankup of the day, or was it a onetime thing?

Sync-ing the carbs is a snap and takes about 10 minutes with the proper tools. There are many sync kits online and most use mercury :( There is one sync tool that is made in England and costs around $90. Can't think of the name right now but will post it as soon as I find it. It is worth the money and it doesn't use mercury :) . A great investment if you plan on keeping the bike for a while. There are a couple of things that need to be done before sync-ing. You need to make sure the valves are adjusted properly, the float screws are adjusted properly (if carb has been overhauled) which you check with idle speed (1200rpm +- 100rpm) and then use the carb synchronizer.

Yes, the large bolt is the drain plug and the smaller one is for the oil filter housing. DO NOT buy the filter from the stealership!!!! Fram makes the filter CH6008 and its about $4. Comes with gaskets also. Call the stealership and ask them how much one is and then laugh loudly when they tell you!!! Sorry, just had to say that. Same goes for the air filter!!! I think there are part numbers and makers are posted here, but I will post what I use just in case. I know I only paid $8 for it. I usually stand it up and it takes about 3.5 quarts after changing the filter and I think 2.7(?) when just changing the oil. Working off memory and the some of the files are locked and I forgot where I put the key LOL!!

Again, if you can't get the work done yourself, find a good indie shop and use them. Avoid the Stealership as much as possible!!

[Snorebaby]

Here is the site for the carb synchronizer www.carbtune.com

The air filter is in a post with a site to find a local dealer near you
www.parts-unlimited.com

Also I know there is a post with several part #'s for the oil filter, just don't know which one LOL!!!

[GearJammer]

Welcome aboard, Seymour & congrats on the "new" Rebel! :wink:

Snorey covered many bases for you & you're REALLY going to enjoy this bike!

Please see thread further down the list in this forum "450 Rebel Oil Filter Cross Reference".........The Clymer's recommends 2.6 qts. w/o filter change, 3.2 w/filter change. As Snorey mentioned, check the oil dipstick with the bike standing straight up (careful, as it's top-heavy & can easily tip!) Sorry, I don't have the Honda Service Manual here with me, but both the Clymer's & the Honda Service Manual would be highly recommended for referencing.

I absolutely agree with staying away from the stealership unless there's simply no way around it. A good, dependable & HONEST indie shop is your best bet without question. The shop that told you that the clutch replacement would cost more than the bike is worth wouldn't be my 1st choice as far as where I'd do business, LMAO! You've obviously got the ability to wrench & doing the clutch work yourself, using the manuals, should be a breeze. I haven't yet had to replace the clutch on this 450 Reb, but have done it on other bikes & it's pretty straightforward. Both drive & driven plates would obviously want to be replaced at the same time.

[Seymour66]

Hey Guys....I appreciate all the posts in response to my questions. I did find a motorcycle repair shop locally that is willing to work on my bike and doesn't care that it's 20 years old. The dealership told me it wasn't worth the money to fix it......go figure. After talking to the mechanic, he said it would be no big deal to change out the clutches and friction plates myself. They offered to order the parts for me and told me that if for some reason I ran into problems that they would help. I was really surprised to get that kind of service!

Anyway....I have a new question. Remember when I said that while going down the road it would spit and sputter? I looked into it a little more and now I'm at the point where I need further assistance. I took off the tank, battery box, airbox, etc.....just to get to the carberators. When I pulled back on the throttle I could see the left side carb squirt gas......but the right side carb is dry and there isn't any gas getting to it. I pulled the bowl off of the bottom and by all means it wasn't crystal clear, but it wasn't gummed up either. That's where I'm at now. I figured I would get some "brake clean" and spray everything to clean it up, but I didn't know if anyone out there has any further info that would help. I'd like to know that I got it resolved before I start the reassembly.

From looking inside the carb port on the airbox side there is a little (copper/brass) fitting. That is where the gas is squirting from on the one carb and not squirting from on the other carb. By looking at it, I can't tell how the gas gets to those fittings. I'm only taking one carb apart at a time so I know how to put it back together (I still don't have the books yet).

If anyone could help me.....that would be great! I'm ready to put it all back together and ride. I'd like to not take the carbs to the shop if I don't have to. After all, I think I've done the hard part of getting them off.

I could always ride my 05 Yamaha Royal Star Tour Deluxe......but it's not the same as saddling up on the ol' Rebel and cruising. I'm ready to see what kind of cruising power the 450 has.

Thanks a lot!

Seymour...

[GearJammer]

It sounds like you've found yourself a decent indie shop, Seymour & that's GREAT! A good indie shop is worth it's weight in gold & well worth building a good rapport with.

No surprise about the dealership & it's not just Honda dealerships that'll offer that response. Dealerships would rather sell someone a new bike rather than work on the bike they just sold them last week! LMAO!

On your carb questions, I'm not ashamed to admit that I've avoided dual carb bikes like the plague. This 450 is the first dual carbed bike I've owned & thankfully, it had been dialed in before I bought it, so far so good. If I intend to keep this bike (which I do at this point in time) I'll have no choice but to learn how to sync carbs, etc. The Amal carbs on the old British choppers are so primitive, it's amazing & just my style, ROTFLMAO!

That being said, I've got to get over my intimidation of duals at some point & my experience with duals is very limited.

Tore down the single carb Keihin on the 250 Rebel when I first bought it & it wasn't difficult at all. Again, I haven't had to deal with the carbs on this 450 yet, so can only offer some very basic info.

I'd highly recommend having the manuals on hand. Not that some work can't be done without the manuals, but there's a wealth of knowledge in there that can be quite helpful. Would also use regular Carb Cleaner & avoid getting any on any rubber parts (they'll melt) I believe the accellerator pump is on the left side carb so I'm not sure if that's what's pumping the fuel you see or if the idle circuit on the right side carb is possibly clogged ? IF you decide to venture in there carefully, you should be able remove & clean the various jets & passageways while trying not to disturb any settings if possible. Sometimes a blast of carb cleaner directly thru the jets will do the trick or a blast of compressed air if you have access to an air compressor.

[Seymour66]

Ok, I took a few hours out of my day to tinker with the 450. Again, everything is already dismantled so I can take the carbs off. I found the accellerator pump on the left carb. I took the bowl off the bottom and of course I found rust deposits. I took the accellerator pump apart and cleaned the ports on that too. I sprayed the carb cleaner up the port where the gas goes up into the carb when you accellerate......again, it only came out the left carb. No carb cleaner came out the right carb. I used my air compressor and then tried the carb cleaner again.....no luck. I took an old toothbrush and tried to clean out the needle area where it is supposed to shoot gas into the carb......again no luck. After looking at the schematics.....the only thing I can think of is to replacing the tube that connects the two carbs together and shoots the gas into the carb when accellerated. I sure wish I could get it going without pulling the carbs apart. So far, I've been able to dismantle and clean the top and bottom sides of the carbs without messing with the adjustments. If I have to physically separate the carbs I might not get so lucky.

I pulled the petcock valve from the gas tank......and the prescreen filter was clogged with rust. Needless to say.....I won't run the bike without a filter between the tank and the carbs.

At this point, I don't think the problem is the sychronization of the carbs, but cleaning out the rust deposits and getting the gas flowing again.

I messed with it for a couple hours. I got a new gas line and in line filter. I simply filled the new hose with gas and started it up without the airbox on it. Now I don't have any accellerator fuel going into the left carb either. As of yet, this isn't my daily driver, so I don't mind walking away to gather my thoughts. I'm not under any time frame to get it up and running, rather just an ongoing project. I've tinkered with the carbs quite a bit and now I'm considering calling up that local shop and just taking the carbs to them (saving money cause I took them off already) and seeing how much they would charge me to "rebuild" the carbs. Now that I think about it......I think once I get the carbs fixed I think I'll be good to go......that might been a lot of why I didn't have any accelleration taking off in 1st gear. It may not need a new clutch after all.

I did find a place that has complete carbs for sale.....I could by them individually or as a pair......just not sure if they are synched already. If the repair shop is too costly, I may consider this.

One question now......the rusty tank! I plan on draining the tank, but what can I do to clean the tank and prevent the rust from continuing? The guy I bought it from indicated that the tank had been treated, but I now question his reliability.

Other than that, the bike is awesome. I can't wait to see what kind of power this thing has when it's running and dialed in. I'll probably ride it more than my newer bike.

I don't work on the bike every night, but when I get stumped.....it would be nice to have a telephone number to someone I could talk to about the situation. If interested, please contact me thru PM. I've already cleaned up for today, but if anyone has any information about my problem, I'd definately like to hear from you.


It's just nice to have a forum like this to share information.

Thanks again!

Seymour...

[GearJammer]

It sounds like the carbs need a pretty good cleaning all the way around, but if you could get the passageways cleared, you might be O.K. The hard parts, such as brass jets, etc. can be soaked in carb cleaner, which might help. Usually the last resort for clearing blocked jets & passageways is to use a very thin gauge piece of wire (some use guitar strings or piano wire, just to give you an idea of the gauge needed. Some use a single strand from an old throttle cable) If you try this, please be careful & try not to score the inside of the metal parts that you're trying to clear.

Sometimes it's best to bite the bullet & just have an indie shop do the carb cleaning & syncing, at least for the first go-round. Snorey found an excellent price for getting his done, tho' normally the quotes can be kind of pricey. But as you mentioned, with the carbs already pulled from the bike, I'd think there'd be a considerable savings for labor.

Excellent plan to run an in-line fuel filter & worth every cent & then some for an item that shouldn't cost more than $2 or so.

You may also be right on about the slow accelleration from 1st gear, especially if the idle circuit/pilot jets are dirty/clogged. After you attain mid-range & upper-range speeds, the idle circuit is essentially over-ridden by the needle valve & main jets.

If the tank itself had indeed be treated with a sealant, you should be able to see it thru the gas filler when the tank is empty. You also should be able to clean the tank yourself to save some $$$.

For cleaning gas tanks, I use about 1/3 tank of Mineral Spirits & 20 1/4" nuts. PLEASE make sure you don't spill any on the paint. Close the petcock, pour in the Mineral Spirits, toss in the nuts, replace gas cap & SHAKE THE H-E-DOUBLE-HOCKEY-STICKS out of it for awhile, letting the nuts slosh around. Drain. Repeat with clean Mineral Spirits. Drain again. Repeat as needed until you see little or no rust particles coming out when you drain. Once done, count the nuts to make sure all 20 have been removed from the tank. To remove the Mineral Spirit residue from inside the tank, you can pour 1/3 tank of gasoline in there, slosh it around, drain & replace the gas cap.

[Seymour66]

Got the bike running good. Finished with the carburator and I don't think it could run any better, but a little sluggish still in first and feels like it hesitates while "cruising".

I'm now working on the clutch......see post "missing clutch plates"...

Thanks for the tip on cleaning the gas tank!

Seymour...