Chopper Rick...Trailer Fenders & Braces

[GearJammer]

Wanted to continue from Snorey's "Windshield & T/S" thread so's not to go too far off-topic in that thread.

Here's one link that might help with the visual: http://www.jpcycles.com/productgroup.aspx?GID=0692790F-E845-457A-ACB0-C11DB6378618&search=fender%20brae&store=All&page=1

Shown are the 5" & 6" trailer fenders & down below are the fender braces for mounting these (usually being mounted on rigid/hardtail sections & often by drilling a hole thru the plated area near the axle perches of the rigid/hardtail sections) You can also no doubt pull up many such items by typing in "fender brace" on a search engine.

What I was referring to in the other thread was mounting a flat fender while still retaining the shocks/free-riding swingarm. In that case, these fender braces in the link wouldn't work as the movement of the swingarm & the compression of the shocks wouldn't allow it. If you "hardtailed" the swingarm by installing solid struts, then you "might" be able to adapt an aftermarket fender brace to support the trailer fender, it'd be a matter of finding the right measurements & being able to install 'em on the swingarm.

BUT...if you look at the fender braces in the link, you'll get an idea of the basic shape of the brackets you'd have to make with 1/8" steel flat plate to support the trailer fender & with the trailer fender bracketed to the stock fender rails & keeping the shocks, the trailer fender would move in conjunction with the swingarm, same as the stock fender already does. The only difference when looking at the fender braces in the link is that your brackets wouldn't need the long "legs" to be mounted. It's be like cropping the aftermarket design to suit the length needed for a swingarm/shock application.

[Chopper Rick]

Gear Jammer wrote..."BUT...if you look at the fender braces in the link, you'll get an idea of the basic shape of the brackets you'd have to make with 1/8" steel flat plate to support the trailer fender & with the trailer fender bracketed to the stock fender rails & keeping the shocks, the trailer fender would move in conjunction with the swingarm, same as the stock fender already does. The only difference when looking at the fender braces in the link is that your brackets wouldn't need the long "legs" to be mounted. It's be like cropping the aftermarket design to suit the length needed for a swingarm/shock application."

Unless i'm looking at this all wrong GJ if using either a 5" or 6" fender it would not be wide enough to reach the stock fender rails, there would be to much of a gap between the rails & fender. When i took a measurement between the 2 rails on my 450 it measured 7 1/4".

I drew a sketch the best i could to show what i mean.

__________ Rail
__________ < hear's the gap i was talking about
_________| < 5" or 6" fender
___________< gap
Rail

[GearJammer]

Good info there, Chopper Rick, I was wondering what the actual distance was between the fender rails.

Two options:
a) They do sell wider trailer fenders, but you may have to check with a trailer supply yard to see what widths & what radius's they carry. A 6 1/2" or 7" wide w/15" or 16" radius would be closer obviously, but not necessarily required.
b) With 7 1/4" across, that leaves approx. a 5/8" space on either side of the fender (and depending on who made the trailer fender, a 6" may or may not actually be a slight bit wider when measuring the slight downward side edges of the fender, but realistically, as long as the fender width covered the width of the tire (or even left, for example, 1/4" of the tire exposed on either side, it could still work.

To allow for the excess width on either side: If you look at the first fender brace in the link & click on the actual pic, you'll get a better look at it. You've got the top w/2 holes drillled in it for mounting, then each side angles down slightly, then the legs run straight down. You could either extend the length of the angles to reach the inside of the fender rails & then form a right angle down on each end of the bracket for a straight mating surface when mounting to the fender rail. Or you make 2 right angle bends on the bracket (each side of course)...one right angle going outwards from immediately under the edge of the trailer fender so the bracket reaches the inside edge of the fender rail & then a 2nd right angle bend going downwards, again, for the straight mating surface for mounting to inside of fender rail. Please keep in mind that the straight edge of the bracket that would mount to inside of fender rail would want to be long enough to allow safe tire clearance (tho' it obviously wouldn't be as long as the legs in the aftermarket pic) These brackets would also be made keeping the moving swingarm & shocks in mind. If you also installed solid struts in place of the shocks, you could fab the brackets so the fender would be positioned where you wanted it as the solid struts would keep the fender stationary, with no up & down movement of the fender while riding.

Please don't get hung up on solid struts in place of shocks or keeping the shocks. You could do it either way:
a) Keep shocks, fab brackets to suit needed clearance during swingarm movement (if you installed solid struts later, you could either leave the brackets as is or alter them to allow the fender to set a bit lower if you preferred that)
b) Or you could install solid struts in place of shocks first & then fab your brackets to suit & be done with it all in one shot (solid struts installed, then fender brackets made)

Edit: A fender that covered the width of the tire may look cleaner, but it's really not mandatory. On the chopped Trumpet w/16" rear tire, the rear fender on mine doesn't completely cover the outside edges of the rear tire & it really doesn't look "wrong" & it hasn't been any problem, meaning no roostertails. The majority of the roostertail effect comes more from the center area of the rear tire, which would automatically be covered, as long as the LENGTH of the rear fender extended backwards over the curvature of the rear tire adequately.

[GearJammer]

Quick note on pricing...

You've seen the price of the trailer fenders in the link, but if you can find a trailer supply yard, the price should be considerably less & they're really the same fenders that are being used on many chops, LOL!

There's also the possibility of finding a used trailer fender, either on eBay or locally. (Personally, I won't pay more than $10 per used trailer fender locally).

[Chopper Rick]

Hey GJ, thanks for the JPcycles link. They also sell a pair of hardtail struts. You think these would fit on a 450 reb without doing any mods to either the bike or struts?

http://www.jpcycles.com/productgroup.aspx?GID=49B814DB-F608-4840-9F19-8184DD5A1BBF&search=rear%20struts&store=All&page=1

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

They might work & they "might" need modification, the most likely "possible" modification being dependent on whether or not they'd fit in the bottom shock mount "cradle" on the swingarm without being ground down narrow enough to fit. If the bottom end had to be ground, I'd also want to grind the top end the same amount to keep them running symetrically straight for safety reasons. The 1/2" holes probaby wouldn't present a problem, but you would have to find bushings to fit that the mounting hardware would go thru snugly.

Points to keep in mind:
These are nice looking struts, but they are pricey.
The shortest struts in the link being 11", where as if you swapped out the 450 Rebel shocks for shocks from a 250 Rebel, the 250 Rebel shocks are 10 1/2" & the swap-out is absolutely a DIRECT swap-out, no mods needed at all. I've done the swap-out & it lowers the rear so significantly that people comment on how "low" the bike sits. Plus, with the 250 Rebel shocks on there, there's been absolutely no handling compromise.

Not trying to change your mind here, Chopper Rick, if you're intent on solid struts, that's your call & it can obviously be done. If I were doing a BTTW Rebel bobber, I'd go with struts like on the red & black one & those are obviously even lower than the 10 1/2" stock 250 Rebel shocks.

Here's my theory, and again, not to change your mind, but to offer you food for thought as well as to allow you options to consider.

If I had the $$$, I'd pay a good welder to make a true hardtail section, but that's not a cheap proposition. Since I'm content with simply having lowered (slammed) the rear-end, the choice would have been solid struts made to whatever length was desired or to go with the shorter 250 Rebel shocks which required no modification. By doing solid struts, what would I have gained ? Yes, a lowered rear section & a "hardtailed" 450. But with solid struts, I'd also lose a fair amount of handling, especially when cornering or riding thru twisties. I opted for the shorter shocks for ease of swap-out, it attained the lowering desired & it allowed me to retain normal handling.

Another consideration of plus vs. minus: Solid struts would keep whatever fender choice from bottoming out. With lower shocks, bottoming out is a concern, but I've been content to go with the lower shocks & I haven't used this Reb for carrying a passenger, which would increase the possibility of bottoming out. It's a matter of what trade-offs are you willing to accept & what your absolute desired choices are for the aesthetic you seek to attain.

Getting back to your original question, if you asked me what I'd do personally ? I wouldn't spend that kind of $$$ for aftermarket struts that "might" require modifiying anyways. I'd fab my own at a much cheaper cost as it isn't that difficult. But as always, it really comes down to what YOU want.

[GearJammer]

Hmmmm....after thinking it over after posting, this might be worth a shot. The 11" struts at J&P are pricey, but they're only 1/2" longer than 250 Rebel shocks, which would still be a significant lowering. Plus, used 250 Rebel shocks can actually cost more on eBay than these J&P struts. If you don't mind paying the bread & IF they don't require any mods other than finding/installing bushings top & bottom, they might be a good option for what you're wanting to do.

Maybe you can measure the width of the lower shock where it sits in the lower shock mount cradle & then E-mail J&P & ask 'em what the width of the struts top & bottom are. If they're the same width, it might be worth going for.

(Another side note here: If you have any indie bike shops in your area, you might be able to find used trailer fenders or used 250 Rebel shocks for a very reasonable price. Just something to keep in mind for future reference, as any respectable indie shop would have a boneyard where they stash tons of used parts)

[Chopper Rick]

All good points GJ, thanks for taking the time to post that. What i most likely will do is remove the stock fender & go with the skirted fender that i've already bobbed & just attach it to the stock rails. I've already done a mock up of it & it looks pretty cool. So you can get an idea of what i'm talking about here's a link that shows exactly the way my came out.

http://www.lickscycles.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=159&products_id=1091

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

O.K., Brother, you've been holding out on us! ROTFLMAO!!! Teasing with ya :wink:

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the look of the bobbed skirted fender & it certainly would fit with a bobber aesthetic. It really looks SWEET!

That would be an immediate styling change & one that's more in line with your goals. Once you've got it mounted, you'll be able to see if there's enough clearance to slam the rear even lower by either using struts or by using 250 Rebel shocks. Again, not trying to steer you in any direction other than the one you prefer to go, but please keep in mind that the original bobbers weren't all hardtails by any means. MANY of 'em ran shocks, so either stock shocks or lower shocks would still be within the realm of classic bobber styling.

Another side note while I'm thinking of it: If you eventually decide to lower it, you'll find that the distance between the final drive sprocket & the countershaft sprocket will be reduced, which will loosen the final drive chain tension. No biggie, just have to re-adjust the final drive chain tension is all. I found this out when I lowered mine. Looked down at the chain & said "Hmmm....the chain seems loose", LMAO!

[Chopper Rick]

Gear Jammer wrote..."Another side note while I'm thinking of it: If you eventually decide to lower it, you'll find that the distance between the final drive sprocket & the countershaft sprocket will be reduced, which will loosen the final drive chain tension. No biggie, just have to re-adjust the final drive chain tension is all. I found this out when I lowered mine. Looked down at the chain & said "Hmmm....the chain seems loose", LMAO!"

I'm glad you mentioned that, that never crossed my mind, good point to remember.

Chopper Rick

[Chopper Rick]

GJ, another thought that came across to me on this fender situation.
What about instead of going with the rails you remove them altogether, go with a trailer fender & leave the shocks in place instead of hardtailing it. I know there would be fender clearance issues to deal with if you stick with the shocks but it looks like it can work.

Chopper Rick

[Chopper Rick]

Another route that you can go if you decide to convert the reb to a hardtail & want it to be permanent is to take your rear hardtail struts that you either made or had custom made for you & either you or a welder can weld one end of the strut to the upper shock mounts & the other end of the strut welded to the lower shock mount & repeat for the other side & there you have it, a permanent rigid frame.

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

You're right, the struts could theoretically be welded on & it's always good to keep the thoughts working as that's how folks come up with ideas for various mods or figure out how to overcome a certain stumbling block now & then.

Just a point to consider here....Struts can sometimes be a more dicey proposition than a full-blown hardtail section. Have heard of struts actually bending the mainframe after taking a nasty hit over a bump, etc. There might also be times when the bike might get sold & the new owner may want to revert back to shocks. For various reasons, welding them on permanently could become problematic, for example, if one of the struts cracked or got bent & needed replacement, it'd be a bear of a job to un-do the previous weld & try to re-install new struts (or shocks, whatever the case may be)

[GearJammer]

Chopper Rick wrote: "What about instead of going with the rails you remove them altogether, go with a trailer fender & leave the shocks in place instead of hardtailing it. I know there would be fender clearance issues to deal with if you stick with the shocks but it looks like it can work"

I agree that keeping the shocks & installing a trailer fender could be done, but this kind of brings us back to the original puzzle of how to mount the trailer fender. With a true hardtail section, there'd be the cross-braces that we spoke of earlier & those cross-braces make mounting a trailer fender a breeze. But with the swingarm being retained, it limits the areas of mounting for the trailer fender, which is why I was thinking of leaving the fender rails on to use as mounting points that wouldn't interfere with the suspension ability & then just cutting off the excess portion of the fender rails to keep a bobbed look.

I guess one possible solution if removing the fender rails would be to run a brace across the left & right top shock mounting areas, but I'd have to take a look at it to see just how that might be done with the least amount of hassle. You'd also want a minimum of 2 mounting points for the trailer fender, so a brace across the shock mounts might be one, but then we'd have to find a 2nd mounting point. As I recall, there is a stock cross-brace on the mainframe that sits fairly forward from the rear tire area, but it "might" be possible to run a straight bracket from the lower front of the trailer fender that would attach to that stock cross-brace ?

[Chopper Rick]

Well GJ, here's the way i think this would work. First remove the seat, the stock fender & the rails & shocks than place the shocks back on once you have everything off. Using either a 5" or 6" trailer fender place right angle brackets on the swingarm near were it attaches to the frame & with a marking pen mark the holes to be drilled in the fender & swingarm. Now position the rear support brace so it lines up right angle to the fender usually close to the rear of the fender than mark were your going to drill your holes on the swingarm side, mount your bolts & nuts through each end & there you have it. By mounting the fender to the swingarm you don't have to be concern with whether there are shocks or fender struts because the tire would always have a constant clearance with the fender.

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

Allllllrighty then! LMAO!

You're getting REAL close to nailing this down & that's GREAT, Brother!

So you'd be attaching the front of the trailer fender with right angle brackets on the front area of the swingarm & then use a fender brace (similar to the one in the J&P link ?) to mount the rear of the trailer fender to the swingarm near the rear, right ? That'd give you 2 mounting points & would defnitely work!

Please keep 2 things in mind, O.K. ? If you can do the drilling to use 1/4" bolts, you'd be less likely to compromise the structural integrity of the swingarm itself. "Cracks & breaks" are not our friend, LMAO! But you'd probably be O.K. with your plan here. The other thing to note is that if you keep the shocks, the fender will move as well since it's being mounted to the moving swingarm. Now, I haven't seen a set-up like this personally, but that obviously doesn't mean that it hasn't been done or that it can't be done, because it definitely CAN be done. :D Actually, the only thing left to be concerned with & it's relatively minor, is that you'd want to insure that the movement of the fender in the front area isn't a problem with rubbing against whatever else might be in that general area. All in all, I'd say this is a pretty dang good solution & offer you a big CONGRATS for your stick-to-it-iveness! :wink:

You knew what you wanted to accomplish, you researched it (pretty thoroughly actually, which is VERY wise) & you've come up with a workable plan! It's the ol' "overcoming adversity" thing. Very well done, Brother!

(If you hit any minor speed-bumps along the way in doing this mod, just give us a shout, O.K. ?)

[Chopper Rick]

Thank you GJ, all i did was to take some of the infor you posted to me & some infor from a cat online who's done quit a bit of this fender stuff & than put it altogether & that's when it started to click for me, but you definitely got the ball rolling for me.

Here's a link showing a fender with the brackets attached.

http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=5263&categoryID=225

Chopper Rick

[Chopper Rick]

GJ, here's a 250 reb with trailer fender, shocks & no rear fender brace. It's the one called "Ratt Trap".

http://www.nightmarecustomcycles.com/page2.html


Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

Thanx for those links, Chopper Rick. Those brackets on EastenMarine should do the trick! Also dug the pic of the 250 Rebel, but couldn't see the detail very well. Didn't see any bracket near the rear of the fender & wondering if it would vibrate/shake while riding or not, I dunno.

Are you going with a fender brace from rear of fender to swingarm on your's ? If so, instead of springing for the aftermarket fender brace, I could see using the right angle brackets & then just running a homemade straight bracket on either side from right angle bracket to swingarm.

Before I forget, I'd definitely recommend Grade 8 quality for any mounting bolts. Vibration can snap lesser ones pretty easily & Grade 8 is a very inexpensive ounce of prevention.

No thanx necessary, Chopper Rick, you got me to using the ol' brain a bit more than I'm used to & that's a GOOD thing, LMAO! So, in reality, YOU got the ball rolling, Brother & I'm very happy that the picture is coming together in a positive way! :wink:

[Chopper Rick]

"Are you going with a fender brace from rear of fender to swingarm on your's ? If so, instead of springing for the aftermarket fender brace, I could see using the right angle brackets & then just running a homemade straight bracket on either side from right angle bracket to swingarm."

I would like to use a rear fender brace but if i were to bolt the bottom part of the brace to the swingarm would not the bolt going into the swingarm interfere with the mechanism for adjusting the chain?

"Before I forget, I'd definitely recommend Grade 8 quality for any mounting bolts. Vibration can snap lesser ones pretty easily & Grade 8 is a very inexpensive ounce of prevention."

Thanks for the tip, don't need that thing breaking on me when on the road.

Chopper Rick

[Chopper Rick]

Gear Jammer wrote..."Also dug the pic of the 250 Rebel, but couldn't see the detail very well. Didn't see any bracket near the rear of the fender & wondering if it would vibrate/shake while riding or not, I dunno."

GJ, if you take the picture of the 250 reb & file in your computer under "My Pictures" you'll be able to enlarge the pix & see more details of the bike.

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

Chopper Rick wrote: "I would like to use a rear fender brace but if i were to bolt the bottom part of the brace to the swingarm would not the bolt going into the swingarm interfere with the mechanism for adjusting the chain?"

Yes, good point, Chopper Rick. Definitely don't want to hinder the chain adjusters in any way. The right angle brackets on the swingarm for the front part of the fender have that base covered. But if that were the only mounting point, I'd think you'd have way too much looseness with the rest of the fender. Ideally, 2 mounting points should suffice, but it's a matter of finding a good position for the 2nd mounting point.

If you're removing the fender rails, would there be enough room to place an 1/8" thick flat plate behind the shocks (top mount) before re-installing 'em ? What I'm wondering is whether or not you might run a bracket from the rear of the fender to the top shock mount. My fear is that even this would allow some back 'n forth movement of the fender, but it would lessen it a bit anyways. (Edit: Scrap this idea. It would act the same as the fender rail & not work because it would be a solid mount going counter to the moveable mount of the fender on the front of the swingarm. NOT good, LOL!).

Or how about right angle brackets positioned on the fender & a straight bracket from those that would go straight down to a point between the chain adjusters & the bottom shock mount ? Do-able ? Not sure if there's enough clearance with the brake hub or not.

It's late here, but will be dreaming about this dilema & might come up with something by morning, LMAO!

[GearJammer]

O.K....Had to step back & re-think this. Sorry that I can't enlarge the "Ratt Trap" pic, but the OL spent several hours fixing some pop-up b.s. on the computer last night & I don't dare try any fancy computer stuff right now, LMAO!

Speaking objectively (and not critically), the more I think about the swingarm mounts, the less enthused I feel about it, mostly because of the chain adjusters & the unknown clearance issues on both left & right sides (brake drum, chainguard, etc.) Am also concerned about the "moving fender" thing. This may be one reason why the builders of "Ratt Trap" didn't use any mounts on the rear portion of the fender & I'm guessing that they didn't mount it to the swingarm (again, I can't see the detail) ?

But if you look at the pic above the finished "Ratt Trap", where they've got the fender & rails off, you'll see a slight extension of the mainframe going just backwards of the top shock mount. There's holes on either end of these extended "tabs" for the stock fender rails/fender mounting. I haven't looked at my Reb to check it out, but does the 450 have these same "tabs" ? If so, this may be the way to go:

Take a length of 1" x 1/8" steel flat plate & form a straight bracket with it's own right angle bends on each end. Holes would be drilled in the right angle bends for installation of the bracket thru the existing holes in the "tabs". Install the bracket BETWEEN those "tabs", place the trailer fender over the bracket, drill 2 mounting holes thru both fender & bracket centers & tighten that baby down. Even if this only gives you one mounting point, at least it's more in a central part of the fender & it may be sufficient to keep it from wobbling around & you can keep checking the mounting hardware as well as use Loctite on the mounting nuts & bolts that are actually holding the fender to the bracket.

As far as lining up the bracket & fender, initially keep the fabbed bracket installed but loose enough to where you can pivot the bracket while you're positioning the fender to where you want it to sit "right" aesthetically. Pivot the bracket as needed so that the mating surfaces of bracket & fender are straight & flush to one another. Once everything is lined up, tighten it all down.

Workable ?

Edit: If this is going to work, just wanted to cover another item here. The trailer fender or "flat" fender isn't perfectly "flat". It's got a slight downward lip on each side. You want the fender to mount flush with the bracket. To keep this simple & not have to do any more bending than necessary, the first bracket that'd run between the "tabs" would be perfectly straight w/right angle bends on each end. When you place the fender on the bracket, the side edges of the fender will make it sit on top of the bracket, but there'll be a space between fender & bracket. Let's call the main bracket the "base bracket". You want to build up the area from the base bracket to a flush surface that the bottom (flat portion) of the fender can rest on. Depending on the amount of space needed to be built up, for example, if it's 1/4"...simply measure the width of the "flat" surface under the fender & cut 2 pieces of 1/8" flat plate to that same width & stack 'em on the "base bracket" until you've got the desired flush mount. If might be unsightly, but the fender will cover it visually & it's the "whatever works" principle. Once the stacked pieces allow for adequate flush mount of fender, drill thru fender & all stacked pieces of flat plate (working/drilling thru one plate at a time). Once done, run bolts thru the mounting holes to hold assembly in place, position fender & then tighten it all down.

[GearJammer]

IMPORTANT: When you finally decide to remove the shocks, fender & fender rails, please keep this in mind, O.K. ?

You can safely remove the fender.

But when attempting to remove the fender rails, DO ONE SIDE AT A TIME, FIRST ONE & THEN THE OTHER. If you remove both shocks at the same time the swingarm will collapse upon itself & you'll be hiring 4 gorillas to help you lift everything back up, LMAO!

After removing the fender, leave one shock entirely in place (one shock will keep the swingarm from collapsing). Remove the other shock, remove the fender rail, re-install the shock. THEN do the same on the opposite side.

Once both sides have been done, you'll be safe to proceed with the fender mod.

[Chopper Rick]

IMPORTANT: When you finally decide to remove the shocks, fender & fender rails, please keep this in mind, O.K. ?

You can safely remove the fender.

But when attempting to remove the fender rails, DO ONE SIDE AT A TIME, FIRST ONE & THEN THE OTHER. If you remove both shocks at the same time the swingarm will collapse upon itself & you'll be hiring 4 gorillas to help you lift everything back up, LMAO!

After removing the fender, leave one shock entirely in place (one shock will keep the swingarm from collapsing). Remove the other shock, remove the fender rail, re-install the shock. THEN do the same on the opposite side.

Once both sides have been done, you'll be safe to proceed with the fender mod.

No problem there GJ, i've removed those rails & shocks so many times i can do it in my sleep. Thanks Bro for looking out for me.

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

Ubetcha, Brother, better safe than sorry every time & also wanted to mention it for others who might be reading but not posting so's they don't run into problems.

Please let us know where you're at with the basic design thoughts that we've been bouncing around here & we'll keep adjusting as needed, O.K. ?

[Chopper Rick]

O.K....Had to step back & re-think this. Sorry that I can't enlarge the "Ratt Trap" pic, but the OL spent several hours fixing some pop-up b.s. on the computer last night & I don't dare try any fancy computer stuff right now, LMAO!

Speaking objectively (and not critically), the more I think about the swingarm mounts, the less enthused I feel about it, mostly because of the chain adjusters & the unknown clearance issues on both left & right sides (brake drum, chainguard, etc.) Am also concerned about the "moving fender" thing. This may be one reason why the builders of "Ratt Trap" didn't use any mounts on the rear portion of the fender & I'm guessing that they didn't mount it to the swingarm (again, I can't see the detail) ?

You are correct in saying that he didn't use a rear brace or any type of mount for the rear of the fender. As for the swingarm, i did talk to the builder of the Ratt Trap via email & he told me he did mount the fender to the swingarm.

But if you look at the pic above the finished "Ratt Trap", where they've got the fender & rails off, you'll see a slight extension of the mainframe going just backwards of the top shock mount. There's holes on either end of these extended "tabs" for the stock fender rails/fender mounting. I haven't looked at my Reb to check it out, but does the 450 have these same "tabs" ? If so, this may be the way to go:

If i'm thinking about the same area on the frame that your referring to yes, my 450 as those same tabs. I'll have to check it out & see if that would work.

Take a length of 1" x 1/8" steel flat plate & form a straight bracket with it's own right angle bends on each end. Holes would be drilled in the right angle bends for installation of the bracket thru the existing holes in the "tabs". Install the bracket BETWEEN those "tabs", place the trailer fender over the bracket, drill 2 mounting holes thru both fender & bracket centers & tighten that baby down. Even if this only gives you one mounting point, at least it's more in a central part of the fender & it may be sufficient to keep it from wobbling around & you can keep checking the mounting hardware as well as use Loctite on the mounting nuts & bolts that are actually holding the fender to the bracket.

As far as lining up the bracket & fender, initially keep the fabbed bracket installed but loose enough to where you can pivot the bracket while you're positioning the fender to where you want it to sit "right" aesthetically. Pivot the bracket as needed so that the mating surfaces of bracket & fender are straight & flush to one another. Once everything is lined up, tighten it all down.

Workable ?

I'm not sure, i'll have to look at that & see if that could be an option to consider. Good to know that your coving all the bases here.

Edit: If this is going to work, just wanted to cover another item here. The trailer fender or "flat" fender isn't perfectly "flat". It's got a slight downward lip on each side. You want the fender to mount flush with the bracket. To keep this simple & not have to do any more bending than necessary, the first bracket that'd run between the "tabs" would be perfectly straight w/right angle bends on each end. When you place the fender on the bracket, the side edges of the fender will make it sit on top of the bracket, but there'll be a space between fender & bracket. Let's call the main bracket the "base bracket". You want to build up the area from the base bracket to a flush surface that the bottom (flat portion) of the fender can rest on. Depending on the amount of space needed to be built up, for example, if it's 1/4"...simply measure the width of the "flat" surface under the fender & cut 2 pieces of 1/8" flat plate to that same width & stack 'em on the "base bracket" until you've got the desired flush mount. If might be unsightly, but the fender will cover it visually & it's the "whatever works" principle. Once the stacked pieces allow for adequate flush mount of fender, drill thru fender & all stacked pieces of flat plate (working/drilling thru one plate at a time). Once done, run bolts thru the mounting holes to hold assembly in place, position fender & then tighten it all down.
Great idea on the doubling up on the plates. It's good to know that your covering my ass on stuff i may miss. Thanks Bro.

[Chopper Rick]

"Please let us know where you're at with the basic design thoughts that we've been bouncing around here & we'll keep adjusting as needed, O.K. ?"

You got it Bro.

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

Chopper Rick wrote: "Great idea on the doubling up on the plates. It's good to know that your covering my ass on stuff i may miss"

No problem, Chopper Rick, but this really has been a collective effort & you've dang sure been doing your own homework/research as well. The various options seem to have been covered, now it's a matter of which way you decide to go with it. I have to admit, after brainstorming this mod, I've about run out of possible options, ROTFLMAO!

It's your call, Brother! :wink:

[Chopper Rick]

One oversight i forgot to mention, when using the trailer fender option & you wish to retain the stock seat you would have to fab something up to get the seat to work with the fender like using P-clamps, or you can go with a aftermarket seat like a springer solo seat, which most likely will be the way i go. Using the side rail frame horns could be one of the areas you can use to mount the seat whether using a springer seat or non-spring seat.

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

Right-o...We'd been concentrating on the fender mod, but there's obviously the rest of the build surrounding that area. Seat (sprung solo sounds good & very do-able), taillight placement, license plate, p-pad or no, etc.

It'll all come together one step at a time :wink:

Early start in the morning for some saddle-time (much needed, LOL!) If I get up early enough will try to check in here before heading out, if not, will check back later...

[Chopper Rick]

"Early start in the morning for some saddle-time (much needed, LOL!) If I get up early enough will try to check in here before heading out, if not, will check back later..."

That sounds good. Have a good one brother.

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

Thanx, Brother! We did it up pretty good & man, it felt GREAT! The dogs appreciated it, too, as they were getting tired of livin' with Grumpy Gus, ROTFLMAO! Heading out again tomorrow & the dogs were fighting over which one was going to hand me the keys! ROTFLMAO!

[Chopper Rick]

Man, check this rear fender out. It's pix number 6.

http://www.hotbikeweb.com/features/0503hb_zero/

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

That's pretty trick! Clicked on the pic & the detailing is fine! Frenched-in taillight, brass washers, very sharp! :wink:

[Chopper Rick]

On the seat option, if your changing to a 5 1/2" or 6" trailer fender you will notice a gap between the left & right side of the fender & the side rail frame horns were the shocks attach to once you have the fender attached. Too hide that gap there are two options you can consider, one would be to use the rail horns to mount a springer seat or sole seat or you can cut the rail horns off just below were the shocks attach too but that should be your last option because once you cut them off there's no putting them back on unless you have some pretty good welding skills.

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

GearJammer wrote (from page 2): "But if you look at the pic above the finished "Ratt Trap", where they've got the fender & rails off, you'll see a slight extension of the mainframe going just backwards of the top shock mount. There's holes on either end of these extended "tabs" for the stock fender rails/fender mounting. I haven't looked at my Reb to check it out, but does the 450 have these same "tabs" ?"

Chopper Rick wrote: "On the seat option, if your changing to a 5 1/2" or 6" trailer fender you will notice a gap between the left & right side of the fender & the side rail frame horns were the shocks attach to once you have the fender attached. Too hide that gap there are two options you can consider, one would be to use the rail horns to mount a springer seat or sole seat or you can cut the rail horns off just below were the shocks attach too but that should be your last option because once you cut them off there's no putting them back on unless you have some pretty good welding skills."

If I'm following/picturing this correctly, are the "rail horns" you're referring to the same as the "tabs" mentioned above ? If so, I absolutely agree with you that those would be a good place for the seat mounts, either sprung solo or solo bucket, as you pointed out. Again, if I've got this pictured right, those same "rail horns/tabs" would be one of the options for mounting a fender bracket, yes ? Please forgive if I'm not picturing this accurately, but if I am, then what you're saying is right on the money....those "rail horns/tabs" could be used for mounting both fender & seat, which would be very cool & make life a lot easier :wink:

[Chopper Rick]

Gearjammer wrote..."If I'm following/picturing this correctly, are the "rail horns" you're referring to the same as the "tabs" mentioned above ? If so, I absolutely agree with you that those would be a good place for the seat mounts, either sprung solo or solo bucket, as you pointed out. Again, if I've got this pictured right, those same "rail horns/tabs" would be one of the options for mounting a fender bracket, yes ? Please forgive if I'm not picturing this accurately, but if I am, then what you're saying is right on the money....those "rail horns/tabs" could be used for mounting both fender & seat, which would be very cool & make life a lot easier"

You got it Gj, the tabs you speak of are what i call Side rail frame horns because to my eyes they look like the horns of a bull. And to mount the seat to the rail horns you could fab or buy some right angle brackets which you could bolt right up to the rail horns just behind the shocks.

Chopper Rick

[GearJammer]

Thanx for the clarification, Chopper Rick. You're definitely onto something there. The rail horn being used for mounting both trailer fender & seat ? Sounds like a plan to me :wink: