450 Carb Adjustment

[Snorebaby]

At the suggestion of GJ (of course he is correct LOL) I am moving this thread from Swap meet "450 Petcock Needed" to here.

GJ wrote:
She fired up ? Far out! Congrats, Snorey!

Sounds like by getting the diaphragm installed correctly, you've gotten the "middle port" to stop leaking, eh ? The leak by the lever may be yet another gasket inside the valve body (behind the lever) The only similar petcocks to this one that I've messed with was on the OL's CL175 & they can be a PITA until you can find the right replacement parts. eBay's a good one to keep an eye on, saw that guy parting out the entire bike, too. If you've got an indie shop in your area, they can sometimes locate individual parts for different petcocks.

On the no idle except at 1/2 choke: Did you remove the pilot screws while disassembling the carbs ? If so, the baseline setting for the pilot screws are....turn in until j-u-s-t seated, then back out 2 1/4 turns for an '86, 2 turns for an '87 (can't remember which year you've got)

Idle speed is adjusted with the throttle adjust screw after that, 1200 rpm idle speed.

(Maybe we should pick this up on the Honda Rebel board ? Quick note here: The OL's youngest daughter is in l-o-v-e & using the computer to chat with her boyfriend thru instant messenger. She's a good kid, but is hogging the computer, LMAO! Not my house, not my computer, not my kid, so my computer time is hit 'n miss right now.....*ugh*, LMAO!)

If I remember correctly, you're doing this carb dial-in without a manual ? Dang, Snorey! You're braver than I am! LOL! But you're getting there!

[GearJammer]

Mornin' Snorey...Saw that you were online & waited to see where you're at with your carb adjustments. Have got the manuals over here & will try to keep them handy just in case.

Have pretty safe access to the computer in the morning here, once the OL's daughter gets home from school, all bets are off, ROTFLMAO!!!

[Snorebaby]

Yes, I am bravely doing it without a manual :). Unfortunately, there is no repairing the lever leak :( . I have an 86.

I had a friend clean the carbs for me so I don't know what was exactly done. He said he tried to put all the screws back in the same position. Also, I am leaking fuel out of the left side vent of the carb while running....it's like the float is stuck and overfilling the bowl (hopefully just stuck!) My friend did not mention anything wrong with the floats. Maybe the float screw needs adjusting also.

I don't know exactly how the carb slides work. The only one that I can feel while running is the left side and it is not lifting during throttling. I am going to take the intake boots off and check the right side. I felt the exhaust at the muffler while "idling" and the right side "hits hard" like it should (you can feel the compression changes) and the right side is more subtle. Maybe the spark plugs...did not install new ones yet. Didn't think I would get to firing it up this week LOL. (Working with limited funds :( ).

Got my eye on a carb on eBay for parts in case I need them also!!
I won't be able to get back to it until probably Monday. I work this weekend (12 hour shifts) starting Friday and have the wife telling me we have "things" to do today! So I won't be able to work on it today :cry: .

[GearJammer]

A manual would be a tremendous help at this point, Snorey. There's a lot of info involved & plenty of pages related to the carbs. On a side note, I've consciously avoided dual carbs until buying this 450, LOL!

I believe that behind the petcock lever there's a cloverleaf shaped gasket/diaphragm & it sounds like it wants to be replaced. Again, an indie shop might even have these in stock or be able to order them. And Chopper Rick posted a link to yet another parts site on the Swap Meet board.

The float could be stuck or the float level might also be off. This might not be of much help right now, but the float level is supposed to be 18.5mm (0.73")

The throttle valve of the left carb (facing engine) is adjusted using the throttle stop screw until the throttle valve edge aligns with the bypass hole. For the right carb to synchronize, there's a synchronization adjusting screw located above (between carbs), that adjusting screw is encased in a spring with the screw head on top. Turn the synchronization adjusting screw until the valve edge of the right carb aligns with the bypass hole.

This is pretty difficult to do from here, but I'll try my best, Snorey. A lot of this no doubt doesn't make any sense without a manual in front of you as well.

I believe there's a linkage between both carbs that when the throttle cable is activated, it operates both carb slides (pistons) at the same time.

[Snorebaby]

Thanks GJ,

What manual are you using? I will have to break down and get it....sounds too complicated to do on my own.

[GearJammer]

No problem, Snorey, but I do agree. A manual would really make life easier, especially in this case, as the carbs have a ton of different specs that need to be considered to get them dialed-in properly.

Have got both the Clymer's "Honda 400-450 Twins-1978-1987" (you've probably seen this one on eBay for around $20) & the "Honda Service Manual 86-87 CMX450C" that you'll see now & then on eBay as well.

The Clymer's could probably help you get the job done, tho' the Honda Service Manual is also well worth the price of admission :D

[Snorebaby]

Yep, I agree. Will look at getting them tomorrow. I will see if I can get the Clymer's local. The Service Manual may take a little longer. I don't know why I haven't gotten them yet (just plain lazy) cuz I have the books for both my cages. And they DO come in handy....like I said before, I am ahead of schedule as far as mechanicals go. Probably get the Service Manual off of ebay.

I think the reprints do not have schematics. The link on the honda site to www.helminc.com which has/reprints the manuals has a disclaimer to the Service Manual :
This manual is a copy of the original publication. It is possible that this item will be in loose-leaf format, if so, a binder will be included. Any wiring diagrams in the original shop/service manual are NOT reproduceable and are no longer available.
I don't know if this will affect me doing the carbs. If it won't then I will order it from them ($20 plus shipping). But would like to have an original if I can find one reasonable.

[GearJammer]

The manuals are always a "must have" for me as well. Saw someone on another board years ago say that the manual for one's ride is one of the most valuable tools one will ever use & I whole-heartedly agree.

Scored the Clymer's from an indie shop locally & paid $30. Later, it seems like they're being offerred fairly regularly on eBay with a "buy it now" option of $20. DOH! LOL!

The Helm Inc. price of $20 plus shipping isn't bad at all. And it sounds like the only thing they weren't allowed to reproduce is the wiring schematics (the Clymer's has that) I bought a Honda Service Manual off eBay & it's the original factory manual w/wiring schematics. It is a loose-leaf manual, but the pages have the holes pre-cut for any 3 ring binder. Think I paid just under $30 total for that one, too, but would imagine a Honda dealership would charge enough to have to take out a friggin' bank loan, LMAO! There's a comparison of both manuals in a thread on this board. I've got no regrets in having scored the OEM version as it's 450 Rebel "specific" & is the one used by the Honda techs.

Have a thought about your petcock problem, but will include that in another post...

[GearJammer]

Head's up, Snorey. You may have already seen it, but there's a used Clymer's on eBay starting out at $6.99...

[Snorebaby]

Thanks GJ. I now have it on my watch list :)

[Snorebaby]

Well I figured out one thing today.......I'm not getting any fire to the spark plugs. That is all I could check today. Don't know if it is the plug wires or the coil. Will have to trace that down tomorrow. So guess what I get to do!!!! Remove the tank-- AGAIN!!! :lol: ROTFL!! I have a feeling (and everybody cross your fingers) that it is the wires.

I think that the float was stuck that was causing my leakage. I believe (again cross your fingers) that it is corrected. As I was trying to crank it I tapped on the bowl. Then I drained the bowl and tried to crank it again. I noticed that I wasn't leaking at that point when I thought I should have been. Will know more after I fix the "no spark" issue.

Does anyone have an electrical schematic of a 450 that they can post?

[GearJammer]

Snorey, I apologize for the brief post (long, rough day here today), but just a shot in the dark. It's a common oversight by many to not remember to set the Kill Switch to "Run" (I'd done this before on the 250, LOL!).

Will check in tomorrow, Brother :wink:

[Snorebaby]

Ya know GJ, I don't remember if I did or not LOL!!. But I am going to check troubleshoot it tonight when I get home from work. Will post with results of the troubleshooting.

[GearJammer]

Here's hoping that that's all it is, Snorey. Again, it's a VERY common oversight that probably everyone makes at one time or another. Have to mention that the 1st time I forgot the Kill Switch position was when working on the OL's CL175. I'd cleaned the carbs, gas tank, petcock, charged the battery & tried to fire it up. Wasn't until the battery wore down that I realized that the friggin' Kill Switch had been on...DOH! LMAO! (This is one reason that I'm not fond of Kill Switches in general)

If this isn't the case with your's, we'll go thru the troubleshooting in more detail, main fuse, switches that may need cleaning, etc.

Please keep us posted after you've checked it out & keeping my fingers crossed here for ya! :wink:

[Snorebaby]

First thing I am checking is the kill switch :lol:....then fuses.....then plugs....then wires.....then coil......................

Hopefully I can stop at the kill switch ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

[GearJammer]

It's a definite possibility.

We'll send some magic dust your way....."Kill Switch....Kill Switch....Kill Switch".....hehehehe......

[Snorebaby]

Update!

When I went to crank the bike, I noticed that the kill switch was on. Turned it off but.......the battery was dead....forgot to charge it the last time I killed it :oops: . So while the battery was charging, decided to check the wires and coil. I put my ohmmeter on the "bad" wire and.....nothing. Put it on the "good" wire.......nothing. Removed Cap Assy. (boot) from the wire and just tested the wire.....good (both of them). (Hmmmmm) So I took the innards out of the boot. (unscrewed the "nut" in the spark plug end) and out came the "nut" and a spring and a.......fuse? (Hmmmm?) I tested the "fuse" and.....nothing (both boots.) Everything else looks and tests good for continuity. There are no markings on the "fuse". I have never heard of a fuse in a plug wire. GJ, can you look in your Honda Service Manual to see if there is anything about that? It is not shown in the exploded parts view, it just shows the boot.

[GearJammer]

O.K., so the magic dust worked on the Kill Switch ? :wink:

Yep, you definitely want to keep the battery up to snuff as you're doing. Have you checked the Main Fuse to the left of the battery ?

Checking coils: Disconnect coil leads.

For Primary: When touching each spade connector with the leads of your tester at the same time, measured resistance should be 0.1-.03 ohms

For Secondary: Remove spark plug boots & insert tester leads into the spark plug boots at the same time, measured resistance should be 7.4-11 k ohms (going from Honda Service Manual, hope this "k ohms" stuff makes sense to you, I'm no electrical genius, LOL!)

If measurement is out of standard resistance, remove ignition coil from bracket. Remove spark plug wires from coil & measure the secondary coil resistance between their terminals, measurement should be 3.7-4.5 k ohms

If measurement does not fall within standard resistance, replace coil & re-test. If measurement is within standard resistance, check spark plug wires for open circuit.

There's no exploded view of the spark plug boot in the Honda Service Manual, so not sure about that fuse you've mentioned. Will check the Clymer's & if I find anything there, will re-post.

[Snorebaby]

OH!!!? You mean the battery needs to be charged for me to crank the bike?! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

No I didn't check the main fuse, but that will get done (printing out your post for a checklist and info).

Done the Primary check--OK

Will do the Secondary check (without the boots because of the "fuse". k is kilo.)

Removed coil and tried to check the secondary. Didn't get any reading but not sure I was making contact. Will do again.

The open circuit is in the boot. If you decide to check and your wires are stock, look into the boot and you will see a slotted "connector" (what the stem of the spark plug goes into). Remove the small outer cover. Take a flat screwdriver and unscrew the "connector". Remove the connector and you will also have a spring and fuse come out also. Check the ohms on the fuse. My meter makes a beep when there is continuity (no open breaks). When I check this fuse there is no continuity (open circuit) and it does not beep. The readout show OL (open line). That is where I think my problem lies. When you put it back together, the spring goes first and then the fuse.

I appreciate all the help. Gonna order my Clymer's book tomorrow :D . About time, huh!! :wink: Will post the results. Maybe we need to copy the spark plug stuff and make a new topic?!!

[GearJammer]

"OH!!!? You mean the battery needs to be charged for me to crank the bike?! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!"......ROTFLMAO!!!!......Unless you're running an old Brit bike or even an old 450 Honda w/kickstart, then you can run without a battery using a battery eliminator. :D

When the chopper died, I tied a battery into the system so's I could run a few checks & sprung for a digital continuity tester. My landlord is an electronics wiz & gave me a quick rundown on basic usage of it. I remember the "k" on the settings, so that's for kilo-ohms ? Thanx, Snorey. Landlord had explained about "dead open", is that the same as "open circuit" (where the digital reading will drop to whatever figure, but not go all the way to 00.0)?

My plans for today were to pull the Rebel into the shop, adjust the drain chain (Edit: That should have been "drive chain", here I was making up parts, LOL!), replace air filter & check the plugs, but the weather report calls for winds up to 25 mph so we'll see. So far, it's not howling out there, so I "might" be able to work in the shop. (Spacious, but no heat or electricity, so have to keep the door open & if it's too windy, the shop would be like a tornado...but then again, it'd save me from sweeping, LMAO!)

Anyways, if I can work out there & if I'm feeling adventurous, might take the spark plug boots apart to see what you're describing, but at the very least, I should be able to run the Secondary Coil test thru the spark plug boots themselves & see what it reads. Will keep you posted if it ain't like "Chicago" out there later, LOL!

[Snorebaby]

Just to give an update....been working and not looking at the bike since Tuesday. But I did find an petcock and carb on ebay (along with some other things and the wife ain't happy, but oh well!!). The seller said the carb came off a running bike but may need to be cleaned as it has been several months since it was removed. I will do an inspection when I receive it (Estimated Delivery Feb.1). If deemed usable without cleaning I will check all settings and install. Hopefully it will work correctly. GJ, ya got that magic dust handy?!! Maybe just my carb needs adjusting. I will check the settings on it also and adjust if necessary. Anyway I will have spare parts :).

The seller of all places was in Tempe, AZ. How coincidental is that GJ!!

[GearJammer]

Hey Snorey! Figured you'd been busy, hadn't gotten into the shop myself for 5 days straight (weekend, then 3 lousy weather days) C'mon Springtime!

Hopefully, the wife will get over the parts buying. HEY! We've got to keep these bikes running, that's the whole point of it, ain't it ? LOL!

I'll have to order some more magic dust off eBay, but please don't be surprised if you might have to clean the used carbs, O.K. ? If the float bowls had been drained, there might be a chance of less "varnish" inside there, but there's just no telling until checking them out.

Cool about the spare petcock for a back-up if needed. But I'd pretty much guarantee that you'll have 2 viable sets of carbs now, which is great! Just a matter of getting them back in service. Once you've got the manual, you can get those babies up to snuff & stash away a nice, clean, ready to rock set.

Tempe ? Yep, a lot of bikes & shops up that way. Actually, there's a LOT of bikers in AZ overall & we've been known to ride the dogsnot out of our sleds! LMAO!

[Snorebaby]

I received my carb and petcock from ebay today....took a quick once over and everything seems to be good. Will do a more thorough inspection this weekend when I have more time. I also ordered a Clymer's manual from ebay and hopefully will be here this weekend. I will check the initial adjustments on the new carb and install it and go from there. Of course I will post the results. :)

[GearJammer]

Sounds good, Snorey...

Looking forward to hearing some positive results, Brother. Keeping my fingers crossed for ya! :wink:

oops, almost forgot. Got the re-supply of magic dust from eBay & sprinkling it heavy on the wind comin' your way, LOL!

[cTc]

HAHA - Good thing, That magic dust will float through here also. I only 75 miles +/- north. I could use it too. :lol:

Later

[GearJammer]

Consider it done, Brother! :wink:

Two helpings of magic dust. Nah, let's make it 3 for good measure, LOL!

[cTc]

It cant hurt, might make me sneeze a bit. I cant ride anyway, had to put a hot water heater in yesterday, I either broke a rib or 2 or I popped something loose in my chest. I hope I can get over it in a couple days.

[GearJammer]

Good grief! You might want to have that checked out. Have heard of some folks that had broken a rib & not even realized it, letting themselves heal up & finding out at a later date during an xray for something else that they'd snapped one earlier in life. That might explain the concave left side of my chest from back in the running wild daze, LMAO!

Hope it isn't too serious. The temps are slowly starting to climb here & it won't be long before you'll be raring to get back in the saddle.

[Snorebaby]

Thanks for the magic dust supply GJ! I am sure we all can use some of it.

CTC, you have to definately get that rib checked out!! I didn't realize you lived that close. Maybe we can get together and do some riding this spring/summer!

[cTc]

I got the "X" out today, but the 18" apes are more than I can reach at this point with my chest/rib injury, guess if its pretty tomorrow, I'll just have to clean it up and wait for the next time I am well enough to ride.

[Snorebaby]

Got my Clymer manual in today!!!! :D
Lost out on a Honda Factory Service Manual :cry: Will keep looking for one.

I was going through the manual and noticed that when checking the coil it is recommended to have it at 68* minimum. So I am going to bring it inside tonight and check the ohms tomorrow. I don't know which way it will affect the readings if it is cold. Also gonna swap carbs after going over the new one tomorrow. Gonna to try to do a valve clearance check, time permitting. Gotta have it all done by 6pm tomorrow so I can watch the Superbowl :lol:

[GearJammer]

Far out! The Clymer's will definitely keep ya busy until you can find the OEM Service Manual.

Good luck on the carb-swap, Snorey! Sure hope it works out for ya :wink:

Not into the Super Bowl, but we got invited to a Super Bowl party, so we'll be doing it up. Heck, after a few shots of ta-kill-ya, I doubt if anyone will care who's winning or losin', LMAO!

[GearJammer]

Snorey, Just a quick add-on here...

Compared the Clymer's vs. Honda Service Manual scheduled maintainence & the Clymer's has the same error as it has for the oil change intervals in regards to valve clearance checks.

Both oil changes & valve clearance checks are after the 1st 600 miles (break-in period), then again at 4000 milles & every 4000 mile interval after that. (Clymer's say "every 600 miles" for both, LOL!)

If you check the valve clearances, please be sure to check the condition of the head cover gasket to insure that it's re-usable.

You may or may not be checking the valve clearances in regards to the different exhaust pipe temps you mentioned earlier ? It obviously can't hurt to check 'em, but I'd be more inclined to think that the different temps were more a result of the carb issue (carbs not dialed in & synchronized)

Good luck either way! :wink:

[Snorebaby]

I agree. The carb issue is probably the reason for the difference for the exhaust temps. I am gonna check the valve clearance cuz it is time to do it and with it sitting so long it may have one stuck. Will do the carb swap and crank her up to see what happens. Got up later than I expected (it was 2am before I got to bed :) ) and may not get to the cranking part but it is my week off so I have time to do my checks this week.

[GearJammer]

Understood on the valve clearance check & glad to hear that you've finally got a week off, Snorey. If all goes well, you might be riding that Rebel this week, Brother! :wink:

(Super Bowl + Tecate + Tequila = Super Hangover.....hehehe...maybe a ride will clear out these cobwebs :oops: LMAO!)

[Snorebaby]

I hope I will be riding by this weekend!! Keep up the positive attitude!!

I did the carb check and swap. The used carb came with an inline filter. As I was trying to re-route the hose because it was real long, I broke the filter fitting :oops: ....oh so close to cranking it and now have to go get a new filter tomorrow. Gonna shorten the hose when I put the new filter on so it won't happen again. Also gonna get a new vacuum hose for it. Found one with a small split in it. Just gonna redo all the vacuum hoses.

Still not sure of the coil. Guess I will be able to tell with the other carb on the bike how it acts. If I don't get any better results, then I probably will buy a new one :( .

[GearJammer]

Sounds good, Brother!

I'd definitely see how it is with these other carbs installed. In thinking about it, I can see what you mean about the coil "possibly" being questionable. No fire to one cyl could obviously be another cause for the different pipe temps, but let's hope for the best & go with the flow.... :wink:

[Snorebaby]

:D WAHOOO!! YIPPPEEEE!!! SHE RUNS, SHE IDLES!!!! HAPPY DANCE!!! :D

So it was the carbs!! Now all I have to do is put her back together change the oil and take her for a spin around the block to test the gears and brakes!! Adjusting the idle by sound and memory as I don't have a tach. Will buy the correct battery for her today and take her out tomorrow if weather permitting. Cleaning will be the next big project to finish. I have been doing a little at a time but still have some more to do. Have to order my new T/S. When all is put back together I will snap a few pics to post. Thanks for everyones help and the steady supply of magic dust!! I don't know how I could have done it without everyone's input and idea's. I am so thankful to have Brother's like y'all!! Don't know how I could ever repay y'all. Y'all have kept me sane throught the whole ordeal.

THANKS Y'ALL!!! (In case I forgot to mention it :lol: )

[Snorebaby]

After doing some more idling and twisting the throttle to check response, I found that I may be running a little rich on the right carb. The limiter caps are not installed on this used carb so I can adjust the settings. I am getting a bit of backfire from the right exhaust on "off throttle" and the idle is a bit rough. Don't have a tach to check the idle speed as of yet so I will run the idle a little high til I can get that resolved. The procedure to do this in the Clymer manual is pretty simple. Looking for a tach on ebay (that makes the wife happy :wink: ). I will call a buddy of mine that may have one that will do a 2 cyl engine.

[GearJammer]

FARRRRRRRRRRRRR OUT!!!!!!!!!!! Congrats, Snorey! *liftin' a cold one for ya*

You've paid some dues, Brother, but you're just about there now & that's EXCELLENT! No thanx necessary here, Snorey, just help out another Brother or Sister along the way as you continue your journey.

REAL happy for ya! :D

(Both pipes about the same temp......hope, hope, hope ?)

Man, it's been a long day here, but you just capped it off just fine. Ya done good! :wink: